Juxtaposition in aSoFaI

[Brian G Turner]

Something I lamentably seemed to have overlooked when reading the books, that the TV series makes plain to see, is the use of juxtaposition.

For example, in Game of Thrones, even early on, we have:

1. marriage: Sansa in grey Winterfell excited about being betrothed to Joffrey; juxtaposed to Daenarys in sunny climes dreading her betrothal to Khal Drogo

2. incest: we have the Lannister twins directly juxtaposed with the Targaryen ones - in both instances, the woman is either already married, or about to be married, to some hated male

I'm sure I had another one in mind but have forgotten!!

Question is, how much does juxtaposition play a role in the different books - ie, taking the same or similar theme and playing it out in different contrasting ways?

I would be interested to explore this further.

 

[The Imp]

Bran "running away from home" juxtaposed with Arya's torturous quest to get home? Maybe throw Brienne in the somewhere trying to find "the princess"?

Jon becoming a man and assuming a strong leadership role at The Wall, Dany becoming a woman and assuming a strong leadership role with the Dothraki. DO I hear wedding bells? "_

Ser Jorah sent away in disgrace from Dany while Ser Selmy comes to her after being disgraced?

Tyrion's wit, intelliegence and fairly stong ethics juxtaposed with Littlefinger's wit, intelligence and total lack of any (ethics)?

that's a start, anyway.

 

[hadd]

I think on one side of westeros you have the krakens reaching for the throne, on the other side you have Stannis.

Also for a brief time you have chapters of Dany as a queen and Cersei in KL as a queen (especially how both get their tasks done).

Not to mention Dany's lesbian scene and Cersei's

 

[Boaz]

Brian, Thanks for the great topic. Let me just say right now, "SPOILER ALERT!"

The obvious characters juxtaposed in A Game of Thrones are the Starks and Lannisters... Eddard's honorable actions versus the duplicity of Tywin and Jaime, Catelyn's adherence to duty versus Cersei's self-serving avarice, their minions behavior (Rodrik, Jory, Luwin, Nan, and Hodor v. Sandor, Ilyn, Gregor, and Pycelle), and the kids. But I think there a lot of compared and contrasted characters... lots and lots. Themes like beauty, honor, love, duty, family, inheritance, friendship, courage, fidelity, learning, and service are used by GRRM.

Beauty: Cersei, Loras, Renly, Jaime, Dany, Beric, Joffrey, and Sansa are all physically impressive. Tyrion, Sandor, Vargo, Arya, Shagga, Sam, and Masha Heddle are not attractive. Yet who would you rather be friends with? Joffrey or Arya?

Honor: Eddard, Catelyn, Robb, Jon, Rodrik, Jory, Brienne, and Jon Arryn all acted with honor (almost) ever present in their minds... yet how many of them are still alive? Littlefinger, Varys, Tyrion, Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Oberyn, Sandor, Gregor, etc. think of gain before honor... yet how many of them are alive and healthy?

GRRM also uses cultural/social/gender/religious/academic/racial positions to compare characters. Theon, Robb, Jaime, Loras, Tyrion, Sam, and Edmure are all sons dealing with their fathers expectations. Kevan, Stannis, Eddard, Jon, Tyrion, Oberyn, Victarion, Aeron, and Gregor are all younger brothers dealing with the legacies of elder brothers. Catelyn, Lysa, Cersei, Genna, Dany, Sansa, Margaery, and Olenna all dealt differently with their marriages of political alliances. Drogo, Dany, Robert, Eddard, Tyrion, Tywin, Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, Cersei, Mance, and Euron must all rule in troubled times. Arya, Dany, Bran, Rickon, Gendry, Hot Pie, Lommy, and Sansa must all come of age as orphans. Aemon, Jaime, Stannis, Balon, and Jon all struggled with duty versus family. The differences are in how the characters behaved.

As for the show, I expect the differences in the lives of the two heroes of the rebellion, Robert and Eddard, to be made obvious. They'd been as close as brothers, yet are strangers when the story opens. They have completely different views towards duty, governance, family, and parenting.

 

[Eulalia]

There are true knights (Brienne, Selmy, Loris?), anti true knights (Sandor, Jaime, Oberyn, Sam,Tyrion?), those out for themselves (Bronn, The Dorthaki) and just plain evil knights.(most of the kings guard).

Who will be Sansa's true knight? Brienne? Not very romantic. Sandor?

Are true knights effective? Must they keep their oaths even if much evil will take place?

 

[Boaz]

Eulalia, great points. Jaime's comments to Catelyn in Riverrun's dungeons showed how it was impossible (at least in Jaime's mind) to keep every single vow since many contradict each other. Jaime also commented somewhere (mayhaps to Brienne) how Gerold Hightower allowed Aerys II to rape Queen Rhaella and how everyone accepted that the White Bull had more honor than the Kingslayer.

Sandor's belligerence towards Beric's men and his comments that a knight is a sword on a horse also show disdain for the illusions of honor.

On the other hand, no one has a bad thing to say about BFS or Arthur Dayne.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Also for a brief time you have chapters of Dany as a queen and Cersei in KL as a queen (especially how both get their tasks done).

Martin, I think has talked about how this was one the big problems with splitting books 4 and 5. He liked contrasting how Dany and Cersei dealt with ruling. Which, I presume, means that Dany will be struggle but ultimately do a good job ruling. Unlike a certain flaxen haired vixen.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Another one would be Lysa Arryn to Cersei.

Here we both have bitter and twisted and powerful mothers, who spoil their children will no consideration of their duties to the realm, merely that they rule with them.

 

[Boaz]

Brian, I agree. The other mothers are Catelyn Stark, Olenna Tyrell, Alannys Greyjoy, Mellario Martell, Melessa Tarly, and Gilly's mother.

Catelyn is obviously the most important... mayhaps in the entire series. She is Lysa's sister and foil to both Lysa and Cersei. While Lysa and Cersei both indulge their children, Catelyn tries to provide a loving upbringing tempered with preparation for adult positions. Upon first glance, Robert and Joffrey seem to fatally crippled by their mothers and Robb and Sansa seem to be ready to come of age. But Robert and Joffrey know how to get theirs... and to a limited degree they know how to keep what is theirs. Strapped to honor, the Stark children become prey for predators like Joffrey. In a perfect world (or at least a more just one), Joffrey and Robert would be dealt with like the criminals they are... and Robb and Sansa would be able to do their duty to the realm and the people. Alas, Westeros is not a perfect world... in fact, it's brutal. And it could be argued that Joffrey was more prepared than Robb and Sansa.

As long as we're talking mothers... Olenna Tyrell constantly complains about what an oaf Lord Mace has become. She must have been fairly involved in Mace's rearing and education. I cannot imagine having that harpy as my mother.

Contrast her to Alannys Greyjoy and Mellario Martell. Both of them seem to have retired and abandoned their children (and their husbands) to their fates. Is it any wonder that both Arianne and Theon feel royally entitled but incapable of leadership.

Then think about Melessa Tarly... she indulged Sam's desires for comfort and leisure. On the other hand, Gilly's mom taught her the horrific realities of life at a young age. And she beat her. Yet somehow, against all odds, Gilly and Sam found each other.

 

[Boaz]

I do not know about GRRM's other works, but in this epic he writes parallel stories with parallel characters. From there he uses juxtaposition to highlight similarities and differences. The one I've been pondering lately is Eddard Stark and his two eldest sons. Eddard, Jon, and Robb have many circumstances in common and I'd like to look at their actions.

1.
Still a teen, Eddard's sister went missing (presumed kidnapped by the crown prince), his older brother ran off to help her, his father was arrested by the crown. So Eddard raised an army and went to war.

Still a teen, Robb's sister went missing. his other sister was made the plaything of the crown prince, his father was arrested by the crown. So Robb raised and army and went to war.

Still a teen, Jon's sister went missing. his other sister was made the plaything of the crown prince, his father was arrested by the crown, his older brother ran off to help them. So Jon tried to join his brother's war, but ended up joining the NW march on Mance Rayder.

2.
Eddard found that he did not have the strength to fight the crown, so he concluded a marriage pact in the Riverlands. The pact was sealed by multiple marriages.

Robb found that he did not have the strength to fight the crown, so he concluded a marriage pact in the Riverlands. The pact was to be sealed by multiple marriages.

Jon found that he did not have the strength to fight the Wildlings, so he cut a deal north of the Wall.

3.
When the discussion of the political future of the realm took place, Eddard declined the Crown.

When the discussion of the political future of the realm took place, Robb accepted a Crown.

When offered Winterfell and the Stark name by Stannis, Jon refused.

4.
After marrying his betrothed and later finding himself in bed with a woman, Eddard left her.

After promising to marry a Frey and later finding himself in bed with a woman, Robb wed her.

After stealing Ygritte, sleeping with her, and promising her he was not loyal to the NW, Jon left her.

5.
After finding Benjen hurt the family by keeping a secret about Lyanna (this is my current theory on why Ben joined the NW) and getting many killed, Eddard sent Ben to the Wall.

After finding Catelyn hurt the family by releasing Jaime and getting many killed, Robb planned to send Catelyn to Seaguard as a prisoner/guest.

6.
Hating the politics of war, Eddard quarrelled with Robert regarding the deaths of two children, Rhaenys and Aegon Targaryen. Only Lyanna's death reconciled them.

Hating the politics of war, Robb quarreled with Rickard Karstark regarding the deaths of two children, Tion Frey and Willem Lannister. Robb chopped off Rickard's head.

Disliking the politics of leadership, Jon quarrelled with Janos Slynt regarding obedience. Jon chopped off Janos' head.

7.
When faced with the lives of his daughers, Eddard bent the knee and confessed to crimes he did not commit.

When faced with the lives of his sisters, the people of the Riverlands, and the people of the North, Robb sent defiance back to the Iron Throne.

When faced with the life of Arya, Jon forsook his oath and the command of the NW..... I guess. I need the next book already. The prevailing theory and what happened on HBO seems canon, but like R+L=J I don't like it at all. He 'turned' his cloak at Qhorin's order, but kept his loyalty in his heart... it makes no sense that he'd renounce it all at the end of ADWD.

8.
Sometime during the war, Eddard made a plan for Jon in order to secure his family.

Sometime during the war, Robb made a plan for Jon in order to secure his family legacy.

9.
Eddard failed to save his father and brother.... and his sister died in his arms. He survived the war along with two newborn sons.

Robb failed to save his father, one sister was married to a Lannister, one is missing, and both trueborn brothers presumed dead. He died in the war, but his wife may be pregnant.

Jon lost hundreds of brothers north of the Wall, including the Old Bear... and sent Sam and Aemon away south...

10.
Eddard told Catelyn to stay at Winterfell and prepare Robb. She fell into depression and was useless.

Robb allowed Catelyn to negotiate with Walder Frey. The terms she negotiated were worse than useless, they were dead weight.

Jon asked Val to treat with Tormund. Val came back right on time with a deal.

11.
Eddard ordered Catelyn to return to Winterfell, have the Manderlys fortify Moat Cailin, and keep an eye on Theon. She joined Robb at Moat Cailin (Robb fortified MC) and she proceeded to Riverrun.

Robb ordered Catelyn to negotiate with Renly. She tried to negotiate with both Renly and Stannis and achieved nothing except to become a suspect in Renly's assassination and to aid and abet the other suspect.

I'm sure more could be said... but I wanted to just look at some of these. Recently I read the scene in ASOS where Tywin reveals to Tyrion that Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Tyrion is incredulous. Tywin replies with something like... "Robb is his father's son and Jeyne is her mother's daughter." Tywin knew something about Eddard's honor and how Robb would respond... and it begs the question, What does this say about Sybell Spicer's marriage to Gawen Westerling? Did she trap a lord rich in tradition and lineage with a honeypot? Tywin and Tyrion discuss this and conclude she (a trader's daughter) brought more money to the marriage than her husband.

(The following turned out to not be a formulated thought. It's my rambling thoughts... stream of consciousness... on parallels between Eddard and Robb.)

Wait.... but if Eddard was so honorable... where did the ******* come from? In the same position as Robb, Eddard did not wed the girl, he took her child as his own. Does this mean that Eddard took Catelyn's virginity before the wedding? No, because they were getting married anyways. Robb found himself worried about his family (his father, two brothers, and one sister dead) and this cute girl shows up and comforts him.... and he's young, handsome, virile, powerful, rich, yet shy around girls, and still a virgin himself... and they end up under the sheets... and then the enormity of it hits Robb... and he has to choose between his honor and Jeyne's honor.

Did Eddard have to choose between his honor and that of Jon's mother's honor? But by Tywin's logic, Eddard had to choose Jon's mother's honor.... yet Eddard did not marry her. Where is she? Who is she? I think the logical conclusion from Robb's marriage to Jeyne and Tywin's reasong that Robb is Eddard's son that Eddard actually married Jon's mother?!?!

Am I completely off the rails? Have we thought about this before? Is Eddard a polygamist? Does he have a secret family? Is this even Jon's family? Could this have happened before Robert's Rebellion... I mean well before?

Robb got Catelyn to admit to following her heart by releasing Jaime, a terrible betrayal of family honor. Then Robb confessed to marrying Jeyne, a terrible betrayal of family honor... and Catelyn had to accept it... and Robb even exiled her to Seaguard after.

Did Eddard get Benjen to admit to betraying the family honor and then admit that he married in secret.... and then exiled Ben to the Wall?

There seems evidence of Brandon's sexual exploits before the rebellion, but none for Eddard. Well, there's Ashara Dayne, but they weren't married. I'll need to think some more.

 

[Boaz]

This is not the thread to continue with speculation on Jon, but those parallels got me going. I'm going to pick up tomorrow regarding Jon in one of the Jon's parents threads.

As for parallels, I read Jaime's last ASOS chapter today. He watches Tommen signing attainders against the Tullys and giving the Warden of the North title to the Boltons, and Jaime goes to his chambers. Tommen signs in big childish letters.

Cersei is waiting for him. Jaime thinks she is gorgeous in emeralds and samite, but knowing she has an agenda Jaime is not aroused. She begs for him to get Tywin to let her back on the Council. She begs him to persuade Tywin not to marry her off to another lord. She asks Jaime to renounce the Kingsguard and go take Casterly Rock. Jaime asks her to announce their relationship to Tywin so that they can be together. Seeing that there is no agreement, Cersei attempts to seduce Jaime. He refuses to do it in the White Tower and pushes her away with his stump. Cersei mocks him and calls him a cripple. She claims to have lied to him a thousand times. She leaves him with his manhood dangling from his breeches.

Then Jaime sends for Loras and Brienne. Loras agrees to not condemn Brienne and then leaves.

Brienne confesses that the White Cloak suits him. Brienne is dressed in a blue gown which she confesses that the dressmaker padded the bodice. Jaime is struck by her Brienne's astonishingly blue eyes. Jaime explains that Arya is going to the Boltons and Brienne jumps to the conclusion that the Lannisters are lying bastards. Jaime explains that it is a fake Arya and Brienne jumps to the conclusion that the Lannisters are cheating the Boltons. Jaime explains that the Boltons know. Jaime explains that Arya is probably dead and that he wants Brienne to find Sansa and Brienne jumps to the conclusion that the Lannisters want to use Brienne as a henchman. Jaime explains that he also intends to keep his drunken coerced oath to Catelyn. Jaime then gives Brienne the Valyrian steel sword Tywin gave him. He explains it came from Ice. He wants it named Oathkeeper. He tells her that this is his "last chance for honor." Belatedly, Brienne apologizes, but Jaime won't have it. She tries to call him Jaime, but he insists on being called Kingslayer and asks her to leave. Brienne declares she will help him keep redeem his honor.

Jaime opens the White Book of the Kingsguard. His own entry was started by Gerold Hightower and continued by Barristan Selmy. Jaime adds to it with his left hand in big childish letters. He records his defeat by Robb, his imprisonment, his maiming, and how Brienne returned him to KL. He then thinks that his life is now an open book... a veritable tabula rasa.

This chapter juxtaposes Tommen (Jaime's secret son) writing and not caring about the future with Jaime writing about his past and hoping for a future.... Cersei: beautiful, sultry, manipulative, arrogant, and self serving with Brienne: ugly, suspicious, stubborn, and honorable.