Catelyn Stark and Cersei Lannister are Jonahs?

Jaime's gold hand "wraps" enough to pick up a wineglass. He should certainly be able to wrap both hands even if he can only choke with one!
 
If the prophecy says "Hands" then "Hands" it shall be. Jaime only has one. "Wrap" around a wineglass if I remember the scene meant "a hand formed to a shape to hold a wineglass if someone set it in there." not likely to be doing much choking.

Words have meanings... especially with this author.

How about if a "Black Brother" choked her to death? Jon perhaps or Sam?
 
Except that Sam is not a little brother. Jaime is the best candidate for valonqar.
 
It just feels like Jaime is too obvious, and also as prophecies go they are more interesting if there are more than 1 double meaning: ie not just that the brother could be the other one that Cersei is thinking of (which we can all see she is thinking too plainly), but that something else in there might have another meaning.

Why are we all so stuck on Jaime's hand being restored anyway? Victarion's wasn't "gone", it was just damaged. If Jaime's hand can be physically regenerated, then I'm going to start demanding that Ned's head be regenerated.
 
So no one thinks that maybe it will actually be Tyrion who kills cersei? The profecy says a younger more beautiful will take all she holds dear- not that she will kill her, so someone else will do it why not the person she scornes most?
 
First, what is the relationship of these ladies to Jonah? I assume svalbard many Jonah from Hebrew history and not Jorah... as in Jorah Mormont who beggared and dishonored his family in ASOIAF.

Jonah was commanded by his God to go to Assyria (the mortal enemy of Israel) and preach a message of repentance. Jonah, disgusted with God's desire to show mercy, took ship in the opposite direction. The ship was beset by a terrible storm and Jonah confessed when the captain asked if any of them were at odds with the gods. So the sailors tossed Jonah overboard in the Mediterranean where he was swallowed by a great fish. Three days later, the fish spat Jonah ashore back in the Levant (a geographic name for Israel/Palestine). He accepted God's will and went to Nineveh (the capital of Assyria) and preached. The citizens of Nineveh, even the King, all repented in sackcloth and ashes. Upset with God's mercy, Jonah walked into the desert. He complained of the heat, so God caused a plant to grow to shade Jonah. When the sun withered the plant, Jonah lamented. To which God said, "You're concerned about a plant? I was worried that tens of thousands of souls and their offspring were going to eternity without me... and you're worried about a plant? Why don't you get your priorities straight?!?!"

So how are Catelyn and Cersei like Jonah? Are they pawns of a god in a plan of redemption? Did they flee when tasked with a distasteful mission? Were they presumed dead only to rise again? Did they succeed in showing mercy to their enemies long enough for the enemy to come back and destroy their nation? Did they still not understand the forces in motion and the ultimate goal even when faced with death?

A few comparisons can be made between Jonah and Catelyn. Being presumed dead in the water for three day before returning to life is one. Another is showing mercy to the enemy.

Second, Tyrion is the obvious choice as valonqar... and he's choked a woman to death before. And yet, even Cersei sees this.... and since she's wrong about everything else, she must be wrong about this.

Which means Jaime is next in line. I think we'd all like to see him kill Cersei (kind of a Jonahish thought and not a godly one). But his lack of a right hand is problematic.

If you don't like either of those answers, then you must look at Cersei's understanding of the word valonqar... We are told valonqar means younger brother in Valyrian.

Some think valonqar could mean any younger brother. Tommen and Sandor are younger brothers and some would like to see them finish Cersei. But I think it is a terrible prophecy that says, "You will be strangled one day by a man... half of the men in the world could be suspects."

A prophecy needs to be more specific... like a Black Brother, a man of the NW. And yet, shouldn't the prophecy say a younger black brother? And a septon poses the same problem... a younger brother of the Faith. I rather doubt the term valonqar was ever really used in relation to martial and religious orders. Just extend that to the Sparrows... they all call each other brothers. And what about the Maesters... do they use the term brother? What about the reavers of the Ironborn? Faceless Men? Sorrowful Men? How about the mercenary company the Second Sons, I mean each one of them is a younger brother!!!

I just don't like the prophecy, "You will be strangled by a junior male member of a religious order or mayhaps a martial order or mayhaps an ethnic group or mayhaps an order of assassins or a merchant's guild or a mercenary company or mummer's troupe or... something. You know this prophecy thing ain't that easy! Sheesh."

Remember how Aemon finally figured out that the Valyrian words for prince and dragon are gender neutral? Princess and dragoness are just as valid interpretations as prince and dragon.

Well, my theory is that this also applies to valonqar. Thus valonqar does not mean younger brother, it actually means younger sibling. And if you'll open your mind to the possibility that Cersei is actually the daughter of Aerys II and not Tywin, then Dany... and mayhaps Jon, become younger siblings of Cersei.

Jon's got his own problems, but Dany's goal is KL and the destruction of Houses Lannister and Baratheon. She is easily the younger and more beautiful woman to supplant Cersei, so why not the younger sibling? Dany must also execute Tommen and Myrcella if the Targaryen dynasty is to be safe... so she'd take everything from Cersei and... strangle her in the process.
 
Does it need to be literal hands? What's the passage around Joff's death? Doesn't it refer to him "clawing at unseen hands" or something along those lines? Maybe she gets poisoned with the Strangler ... or maybe it's even more metaphorical than that: Jaime refuses to help her so she decides to take her own life [with the Stangler]. At the time she'll think that she's taking her destiny back from Maggy the Frog, even if only in death, but in the end her attempt to avoid the prophecy is what causes it to come to fruition. In a similar way it was Jonah's attempt to run from his "fate" that got him to Assyria.
 
Boaz said:
Well, my theory is that this also applies to valonqar. Thus valonqar does not mean younger brother, it actually means younger sibling. And if you'll open your mind to the possibility that Cersei is actually the daughter of Aerys II and not Tywin, then Dany... and mayhaps Jon, become younger siblings of Cersei.
Click to expand...

It can't be Dany because ...

"the valonqar shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Valonqar might not be gender specific, but HIS is. if your going to discount Jaime because his hands don't wrap, you have to discount Dany because her hands aren't his.

I still really want it to be Jaime. I kind of like the idea that she dies by the strangler but that would be too abstract for my liking. I have another question, who is the current Hand (of the King) Kevan is dead, so we need a new hand. If Jaime becomes hand, he will have a beautiful golden chain with many hands that can be wrapped around Cersei's throat
 
Well, using facts against me is sooooo unfair!
 
Just saw this thread title and did not understand what Jonah meant. So I looked up Jonah and found a definition that means a bringer of bad luck. Well, I've never heard that before. And then I read my first post on this page... it seems fairly irrelevant to the OP.

I don't see either Catelyn nor Cersei as harbingers of bad luck. I think they both do bring harm to those around them, especially to their children due to extremely poor choices. Both have their egos directly tied to their last thoughts. Whatever their last thoughts were, they refuse to be proven wrong. If both could stop and count to ten before responding... or wait a day or two while thinking things over, then maybe they would not be so short sighted.

Since we have more POVs for Catelyn, I'll user her an an example... Her first idea on Eddard being Hand is that it's a grand honor. They'll all go live in a warm climate with the Great Sept of Baelor close by. Her boys will be knights and her girls will be ladies. But she pushes back at Eddard's desire to refuse Robert.

After Bran's fall, Catelyn thinks they must all stay at Winterfell and cannot understand that Eddard has already committed to Robert and must now follow through.

When she wakes after battling the assassin, she knows she must be strong. She correctly deduces the Lannisters wanted Bran dead, but decides her strength must go to King's Landing instead of guiding Robb, watching over Bran and nurturing Rickon.

Arriving at King's Landing, she promises one silver to each sailor. The captain says he'll hold it for the men when Catelyn says she'll hand them out personally. Feeling unpaid, the captain immediately sells her location to Varys.

At the crossroads inn, she looks around and sees many armed men going to the Hand's tourney. She sees northmen, rivermen, Freys, families loyal to the Tullys, families loyal to the Targaryens, and a number of sellswords... and she thinks that war must be avoided at all costs. Five minutes later, she asks for loyal men, of Robert I and her father Lord Tully, to arrest Tyrion and bring him to justice.

When she joins Robb at Moat Cailin, she is worried about a fifteen year old leading an army. She also knows there needs to always be a stark in Winterfell, she knows Bran and Rickon need her, and she knows Eddard told her to stay in Winterfell. So instead of returning to Winterfell with Robb (letting a northman lead the army), she and Robb ride to Riverrun.

Catelyn's negotiations with Walder Frey were ruinous.

She coerced a drunken oath from the man with the worst reputation (and the deadliest sword) in Westeros and sent him under the protection of a woman, fully knowing this was treason, on a mission with a small chance of success in hopes of freeing one daughter (mayhaps two) upon the rumored promise of the Imp working for the King and Regent who executed her husband. She did this because she received news of Bran's and Rickon's deaths at the hands of the very man Eddard told her to keep close at hand. All she did was free up Tywin to scheme away and took away her son's one bargaining chip. Not a good plan.

What about Cersei?

She let herself continue a childhood game of naked 'Come into My Castle' with her brother for twenty-five years! This incest resulted in three children and led Stannis, Jon Arryn, and Eddard to learn her secret. This undeniable crime shattered her relationship with her father, her father's relationship with Jaime, he relationship with Kevan, destroyed Lancel's self worth, .... and could be seen as the primary cause of the War of the Five Kings.

In order to keep the prophecy of marrying the king a secret, she murdered her companion Melara.

She never disciplined Joffrey. She taught him to be arrogant. Readers knew Joffrey would not live long.

Cersei cowed and brow beat Myrcella and Tommen. Small wonder they immediately bonded with their fiancees and families to be.

The alliance with the Tyrells is the military coalition that proved insurmountable to Stannis, to Robb, and scared off Balon, Lysa and Doran. To fprtify this alliance, Tywin engaged Joffrey to Margaery, gave Loras a White Cloak, gave the Florent's lands to Garlan, gave the Redwyne's a tax break and wanted Cersei to marry Willas. Upon Tywin's death, Cersei snubbed Mace as Hand, snubbed Redwyne as Admiral, refused Willas, conspired to get Margaery arrested for treason, sent Loras to an almost certain death, had the Redwynne twins arrested for treason, and accepted Taena Merryweather (a Tyrell spy) as her closest confidant.

She refused her uncle Kevan's advice to continue his policies.

Needing money, she refused payment to the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank then cut a deal to back Stannis.

Still needing money, she negotiated with the High Septon for the Faith to forgive the Crown's debt so that the militant religious orders of the Suns and the Stars could be reformed.

She used this saved money to build a new fleet under the leadership of Aurane Waters, the ******* of Driftmark.

The upshot of all of this was that she herself was arrested and held by the reformed and revitalized Faith Militant for treason. Mace became Hand. Kevan became Regent. Margaery and the Redwynne twins were freed. Cersei had to do the walk of shame and is still waiting upon her trial by combat for high treason.

I think much of the mess surrounding their families is not due to chance, luck, happenstance, fortune, fluke circumstances, nor fate. I think it's due to foolishness, conceit and pride.
 
I see all these Boaz posts, and i'd like to play ball. But can't quite bring myself to really immerse myself back in the story.
I need a new book first.
 
@Koopa I understand, Kiwi. It's been about ten years since my last burst of active speculation. You and I may be the only ones left from the heyday of sixteen years ago.
 
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