The process to date:

Jo Zebedee

Aliens vs Belfast.
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Publishing is a funny little secretive business and that means I'm discussing this in very general terms, but when I was just starting I wondered what expectations lay ahead should I take this writing seriously. Some of this comes from my own experience, some from things I've read/been told. I hope it's helpful, in terms of setting expectations.

Note: I am not yet published so there is a whole other end of the process beyond this that I don't know about. :eek: I also haven't included self-pubbing here, simply because I don't have experience of it, but it'd be fascinating to hear the process for that, too.

AGENT/SMALL PUBLISHER - For genre work, there is a valid choice to be made betweeen aiming to get an agent or aiming to go direct to a publisher. Some large publishers (Gollanz, for instance) do still take direct subs but the majority take from agents only. Small publishers, however, take subs directly.

I've gone for a mix. I've taken the offer from a small publisher for my trilogy (3 offered on it in total) and an agent for my next book. That decision was mostly made by the type of books - the trilogy is a classic-style space opera which traditionally do well with small publishers, where my other book is a more mainstream (sci fi, though) YA, and, given that returns for YA are lower (per book), generally, than adult, it makes sense to shoot high.

Many authors now mix conventionally published with self-published, which is a really viable way of doing things.

THE PROCESS OF GETTING AN AGENT/SMALL PUBLISHER

Choosing an agent - there are loads out there, big and small, and it's hard to know how to find a match. I found Twitter useful for gauging my feel for an agent and, once I had interest, the detail of assessing whether they were what I wanted took a bit of time. Things like, did they sell books? Did they seem to be approachable? Were they editorial in approach? (I wanted that, others may not.)


Now I have one, I do understand the hoops placed before us a little more (but it still frustrates me to see great stuff getting rejected for others). An agent needs someone who'll put their head down, do revisions in a timely fashion, and mostly work at those without extensive, daily, questions. The way you approach an agent tells them a lot about whether you'll work well with the revisions ahead.

I revised my book three times before my agent offered rep. Each of these was an extensive revision. I've revised it three times since - two of these were substantial changes. Add to that that I'd used a professional editor prior to the agent and a rewrite from that, I'm looking at the book having been written eight times, honed each time. That process has taken me about 18 months, during which time I've been working on other stuff.

Competitions are another viable way of seeking an agent- Twitter run a lot of them and there are often top agents in the pot. You need a cracking pitch, though (something I've never excelled at.)

At the end of that time, I still don't know if the book will find a home. The submission process, which I don't know much about yet, is like another query process, this time between the agent and the editors at publishing houses. It can take ages, years in fact, and there is no guarantee of finding a home. Sometimes, like with querying you have to go back and revise to get interest.

After you do sell the book, the publisher will ask for revisions and, if you're lucky enough to get a deal on both sides of the pond, you'll have proofs to read of both versions.

For the publisher - a different set of challenges lay ahead. I've had a variety of offers, some with advances, some without, and the decisions came down to three key parameters:

The contract offered - one was boilerplate and pretty poor, for instance

The advances/royalty model - what are you being offered? How likely are you to see a return? Is it on net or gross? There is loads of stuff that needs thought about and I reccommend a trip to Absolute Write (website) should you find yourself in this position, they have loads of good advice on contracts.

The distribution - this can be the killer for a small press. It's hard getting stock on the shelves of bookstores and bookstore presence drives sales. But if there is good distribution in place and you can create a buzz you might slip it into the odd outlet. But without distribution, or slow distribution, this is much more problematic.

REVISIONS

I've been pretty open on my blog here about the revision process. Also, I have a couple of pots in the pan, which complicates things, but most of my time is spent editing at the moment, with limited time to create. (The challenges are keeping me sane on that level, and the odd short.)

Revisions have taken, for me, two main forms:

Changes in characterisation, tone, point of view focus, key story elements, character arcs. These are big edits which are a ground up review of the whole book because continuity will catch up with you if you only change sections. Each takes me something like 6-8 weeks to do for a c. 90-100k book, and that, given feedback, seems quick. These are the painful ones, where you ditch scenes you love, and sideline characters you're fond of, and generally turn the book into something new. For each book I've got to the point of semi-completion I've done at least six of these. For my first book I've done about 12.... So, um, make sure you really, really love that book you're writing because you will be in and out of it many times

Continuity/tightening revisions - Control + H is, sometimes, the most used function on my keyboard. Searching for key overused phrased (turning, clenching, looking, that sort of thing) and constructions that occur too often (normally pointed out by an editor and painful to review because they feel right to the writer), searching that I've done data pad and not datapad throughout, that sort of thing. And changing 'he saw the large bird landing and climbed on the bird's back' to 'the bird landed and he climbed on its back' to bring the word count that's threatening to implode with all your extended story arcs from the last base-up revision, back down.

These edits bounce backwards and forwards between writer and agent (track changes is useful.)


Some edits fall between both of these types.

So, um, that's my broad experiences of the process to date. I remember Teresa, early on, saying if you could write and you stuck at it your odds were good of getting published. I think that's, essentially, true. Because sticking at it is long and tiring and a little soul-destroying, and it's a million miles from the idea of gaily sticking a pen behind our ears and being a writer. I genuinely don't think any book that's out there that's good and honed and reads well took much less work. But I kind of wish someone had mentioned it at the very start and actually told me what sort of marathon lay ahead (and I'm doing well for how long I've been writing), so that when I decided I'd like to become a writer I'd known how much time I'd need to devote to it, and maybe made a learned choice between novels and shorts and aspirations. :)

Anyway, hope it's helpful.
 
The number of iterations sounds frightening!

It makes me wonder why there aren't more pairs writing together, as each would be able to spot and eradicate the other's tics and slaughter the other's darlings. I'd have thought having a trusted partner do that isn't going to be as painful as an editor telling you to do it yourself.
 
The number of iterations sounds frightening!

It makes me wonder why there aren't more pairs writing together, as each would be able to spot and eradicate the other's tics and slaughter the other's darlings. I'd have thought having a trusted partner do that isn't going to be as painful as an editor telling you to do it yourself.

All these had been extensively beta read in advance, by both a writing group and individuals. :) I'm not saying my experience is everyone's - it'd (interesting to know - but I've yet to hear of anyone not being asked to rewrite and most more than once. (I think it does get better with maturity. God, I hope so. ;))
 
Cheers for the update, springs - very useful. :)

I know it's easy to be precious with a draft as soon as a writer finishes with it - so did having your MS edited by Teresa help put you in good stead for accepting later revisions? Not least, make it less of a shock to get feedback on changes?
 
Cheers for the update, springs - very useful. :)

I know it's easy to be precious with a draft as soon as a writer finishes with it - so did having your MS edited by Teresa help put you in good stead for accepting later revisions? Not least, make it less of a shock to get feedback on changes?

I think it helps that I'm reasonably good at accepting revisions and that, by the time Teresa had saw it, I'd had some pretty heavy betas. (The read before it went to Teresa was from a writing-god on the Chrons who identified two key components that were deus ex machina, which I was able to fix in advance and strenghten a character storyline in doing so.)

But yes, definitely having an early experience of being editing and rethinking the story was helpful. I'll see with the next edit if I managed to do justice to the advice given. :)

The hardest thing I've had to do was change the focus of a story and put an emphasis on one character at the expense of another who I loved. I didn't go so far as to lose the second character but many of their interactions are seen through others, and I still miss a few of the scenes. The book is better for it, though.

I should have mentioned, too - I never do a rewrite now without track changes being on so if I delete something I end up wanting to put back in it's easy.
 
Thanks for confirming my deepest, darkest, locked in the back room fears Springs. It's refreshing to hear what you suspect to be true - is.
I guess I am going to have to deal with my distrust for all Things when it comes to beta-readers. Every-one on every-Thing, every-where, always mentions a beta.
Oh well, there's a bit more of that mountain hiding behind the cloud. ONWARD!
 
Thanks for confirming my deepest, darkest, locked in the back room fears Springs. It's refreshing to hear what you suspect to be true - is.
I guess I am going to have to deal with my distrust for all Things when it comes to beta-readers. Every-one on every-Thing, every-where, always mentions a beta.
Oh well, there's a bit more of that mountain hiding behind the cloud. ONWARD!



That reminds me of the Larson cartoon. Two pilots are flying a plane along and looking in some puzzlement at a goat that has just loomed up out of the cloud in front of them. "Say, what's that doing way up here anyway?"


That SOO reminds me of writing, especially getting critiques.
 
Springs, thanks for being so open and honest about the writing process (have greatly enjoyed the blog posts, too). Its a good reality check for those of us who are not yet at the agent/publisher phase. :)
 
Springs, thanks for being so open and honest about the writing process (have greatly enjoyed the blog posts, too). Its a good reality check for those of us who are not yet at the agent/publisher phase. :)

Oh, good, I was worried I was scaring everyone! It's info I wished I had a couple of years ago.

Thanks for confirming my deepest, darkest, locked in the back room fears Springs. It's refreshing to hear what you suspect to be true - is.
I guess I am going to have to deal with my distrust for all Things when it comes to beta-readers. Every-one on every-Thing, every-where, always mentions a beta.
Oh well, there's a bit more of that mountain hiding behind the cloud. ONWARD!

Sadly, I don't think there's any way around getting feedback to progress writing skills. Betas are, I find, absolutely crucial. It's about finding some that you trust, I think - i'm very lucky with that. :)
 
I agree about the trust bit. Well and the feedback bit. Working on that. For now the Uni degree feedback is h̶e̶l̶p̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶i̶l̶d̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶f̶i̶d̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶ something to work with. ;)
 
I must say that the last three shorts I did, I used betas and the results were far stronger than had I not used them. (Springs helped a lot with the first one..thanks :) )

Of course some betas are gracious enough to spend their valuable time suggesting some editing tips and others suggest plot changes. It is like anything though, you can have 2 people read something and 1 can love it and the other can think it doesnt work, so you need to find the right balance.

So I fully agree that betas are important.
 
What springs hasn't mentioned is the mass amount of paperwork you get sent! I was expecting to sign a contract and then sit back and chill out until publication day. No. This does not happen.
 
Sorry, jargon: my bad. A beta is an early reader who critiques the draft for you. Technically, you can also have alphas, who work with the development as well and feed in ideas, but I usually roll the two into one. (Poor chaps....) :D
 
Valuable things to know [no matter what route a writer takes to publication].

This is not all that frightening; but it almost has the feel that it could be misleading. Not in any sense of intention; so I should probably explain.

It would be very easy to get the feeling that one has worked trying to perfect ones writing and then upon reaching the stage where you get an agent or publisher they tell you that you don't write well at all and you have started over with them with these multiple edits. That's only because there 's not much emphasis on the fact that you do write well or you wouldn't get this far. The edits they ask for might make you better; but likely in a different way than the alpha beta writer relationship has worked. These professionals are focused on making your already good work fit their market and that's most likely a majority of the revisions. What you should be learning from this is how to make your work marketable to the stream in which you place it and, when you do, it will likely be a much easier task to fit the needs of the agent/ publisher with fewer edits in the future: if you pay attention.

I wouldn't characterize it as scary unless as a writer we haven't spent any time already rewriting thing several times. With enough alphas and betas we should have more than a handful of editing cycles already; with a full understanding that those are to get the work into the hands of the group that are going to help us make this a marketable work and that will include another handful of edits; possibly.

Thanks for this information on your experience so far and hope to see more on your future experience.

It would probably be a mistake to think that once you have an agent you don't need the alphas and betas anymore.
Just as much as it would be a discouragement to believe that if you had a partner in writing it would minimize those later edits.[I suppose it could but there is no guarantee.]
But once again from the sound of it if you pay enough attention the first time through you will learn what it's going to take and you'll be able anticipate some of the potential edits the next time through

Thanks again.
 
It would probably be a mistake to think that once you have an agent you don't need the alphas and betas anymore.


Absolutely, and my agent encourages me to use critical readers when I'm writing - the more critical the better! (that's me, not her saying that.)

Just as much as it would be a discouragement to believe that if you had a partner in writing it would minimize those later edits.[I suppose it could but there is no guarantee.]

I don't think it would make too much difference, but I am lucky that I generally have someone prepared to slog through what I've written and give feedback. I owe some of them a few books, though...

But once again from the sound of it if you pay enough attention the first time through you will learn what it's going to take and you'll be able anticipate some of the potential edits the next time through

I'm certainly finding with the current work in progress that I'm paying more attention to making it marketable and tight earlier. I'm sure I'll still have edits, though.

One thing that I don't think is right, though, is this:

It would be very easy to get the feeling that one has worked trying to perfect ones writing and then upon reaching the stage where you get an agent or publisher they tell you that you don't write well at all and you have started over with them with these multiple edits.

No one has ever told me more than my agent that I can write. She absolutely believes I can or wouldn't have offered. It has been tremendously good for my confidence to have someone who's so clued into the market and who does so well believe that I can write. It's just that she has suggestions that make it better, especially since she knows the market so much better than me.
 
I wasn't so much addressing this at you and how you felt, as I was addressing a portion of what you wrote with what people reading it might feel.

No one has ever told me more than my agent that I can write. She absolutely believes I can or wouldn't have offered. It has been tremendously good for my confidence to have someone who's so clued into the market and who does so well believe that I can write. It's just that she has suggestions that make it better, especially since she knows the market so much better than me.

It was more in reference to this line.
These are the painful ones, where you ditch scenes you love, and sideline characters you're fond of, and generally turn the book into something new.[/B]

Sometimes people equate the darlings with poor writing when in fact the writing all around the darlings might be quite brilliant. It's sometime difficult to separate out that these are things the reader doesn't need, to complete the experience of the story; but might be more often than not the most difficult for some writers to identify.

Usually if they makes it that far it might mean that the Alphas and Betas missed it or the author was being thick headed about something. Still when I read that line I had to think about how something like that might have survived Alphas and Betas and then thought about how sometimes it felt like some critiques approached those as poor writing.

From all of that was derived the ghost of the thought that some of the edits might feel like pointing at bad writing skills.
 
Ah, yes, I get what you mean. I think the difference between an agent/publisher edit is that they're very focused on market and saleability, so something might be good in the story, and get past the betas, but not fit the market (which was what happened with the pov that got cut - it was an adult pov in a YA story and made the book less easy to define as YA.)
 
Exactly and one notable case that comes to mind is;
Podkayne of Mars by Robert A. Heinlein.
Heinlein killed Podkayne at the end in his original manuscript and the publisher felt that was a bit extreme for their Juvenile SF and it apparently was quite a struggle for Heinlein since the whole death of Podkayne was part of a major theme or philosophy he was trying to write into all his work.
 

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