Fantasy Quest type story

[Ray McCarthy]

I assume this is a busy marketplace,

It's early, no shoppers yet. He arrives evening before and sets up at dawn. Obviously I didn't make it clear enough

It was early morning and Barans had just finished setting up his stall

I obviously need more description and more about what Barens is thinking and seeing, otherwise it's too jerking and bizarre. Though it's meant to be a little strange.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I also keep thinking that you've already published

Not fiction ever.
This is start of the seventh fiction novel. I've done two in 1990s and four since last June. Various short stories, but while I like reading shorts, I prefer writing 50,000 to 130,000.
I wrote a history of communications in 1988 as part of a portfolio for someone else's business, I plan sometime to revisit it and see about publishing. I've done a lot of tech writing and internal white papers and even a patent (lot of work). But no published writing, fiction or non-fiction.

 

[Hex]

We're only here commenting because we think it's good, but also that it could be better. Everything could be better, always, so I wouldn't take that to heart.

If I were you, I wouldn't do anything about the comments right now, because you've only just started writing this. I'd get on with writing it, and finish it and then, when I was editing, I'd re-read the comments and see if any of them were relevant.

It is good. It is intriguing. You should have confidence that your story opens well, but bear in mind that it could do with a little more grounding. That should all be encouraging. Go forth and write.

____________________________

EDIT: re the info-dumping vs mystifying the reader, it's a really tricky one. My first ms was mauled (helpfully) by John Jarrold, and that was one of the things he told me off for -- that he had no grounding until too late.

I'm in no way an expert but hopefully I can show you what I mean a little here:


It was early morning [I would probably add something about what the sky looked like/ the market being deserted just to lengthen the description a teeny bit and tell us a small thing about what early morning means here. e.g. "It was early morning and the sky behind the castle was shading to pale green..." or "It was early morning, almost silent apart from the clop of horses' hooves on the cobbled streets and the sleepy murmur of stall holders..." -- not a lot, but you can slip in a tiny thing here and ground us a little] and Barans had just finished setting up his stall [<-- nice one. I know the name of the character, I know what his job is and I know he's diligent and hardworking because it's early morning and he's already set up] when he saw the two street urchins come over and stare at the food. [I'd consider enriching this description. You can take this sort of thing too far, but if you told us what sort of food Barens had on his stall, that would give us another insight into your world -- and into the character. So does he sell fruit or fish or caviar and dumplings? How much food is there? Is it a huge mound of bread? Is it something he's spent ages constructing? Again, it needs to be light, so something like: "... the two street urchins sidle over to stare at the mounds of bread, drawn by the rich smell of rye..." or "...the two street urchins hovering over the expensive end of his stall, practically drooling into the caviar he kept for the servants of the big houses on the hill..."]

"Show me your coin," said Barens, the stall holder [<-- you don't need to tell us he's the stall holder. We know this already], "before you even think of touching!"

"Ain't got none," said Kevlin, [<-- I'd put a full stop there, and a capital at "me". If we're seeing this from Barens's point of view, he doesn't know the urchin is called Kevlin, so you have another chance to ground us a little and show us a bit of your world with a teensy bit of description: e.g. "Ain't got none," said the taller of the two, peering out from under a ragged fringe. "Me and my brother's starving."] "me and my brother's starving."

[If Barens is suspecting them, I'd like to know it here. Something's making him curious and since we're pretty much in his head, it would be good to know what it is. Something like: The boy was thin, but not emaciated. Barens felt his suspicions rise.] "You should be in the Dalrinat City Institute for the Poor." [he said, giving himself time to consider.]

 

[Ursa major]

Though it's meant to be a little strange.

I haven't read the text yet, but I'd like to ask a question. (You can respond to questions. You can even feel a bit put out by someone asking a question when they haven't read your text ) But my excuse is that it's a general point.

To whom is it meant to be strange? The reader? The PoV character? The other characters in the scene?

I'm asking, because the answer should change the way you write the scene. For instance, if a PoV character finds things that are strange to them, they'll likely perceive this and consider it (as things that are not normal would tend to be mentioned, simply because they are strange). If, however, it's only the reader that will find things strange, those things may be mentioned if they are relevant to what is going on in the scene, but not otherwise. And if it's only the other characters who think things are strange, they may mention (some of) them, but may simply show unease. They may not even react, not in a way that the PoV character would notice (in which case, it wouldn't be, and shouldn't be, recorded in the narrative).


By the way, in close 3rd person narrative, you don't have to mention that a character has seen something, or heard a sound, or smelled something: that the narrative mentions what has been seen (or heard or smelled) indicates that the PoV character is aware. So in your first sentence, you would write:

It was early morning and Barans had just finished setting up his stall when two street urchins came over and stared at the food.

Of course, if there's a special point to the noticing (such as the PoV character becoming aware of something), that's a bit different, as you'd want to record, in some way, that growing awareness.

 

[Phyrebrat]

I'm late to your crit but wanted to echo the latest sentiments about not giving up. We write in (almost) isolation and we all know that can make it awkward to see objectively. But it also makes it hard to take the crit objectively, sometimes, too (well, for me it does ).

Anyway, I just think Hex nailed it on the head with her delightfully pink crit and if you apply that as a sort of methodology for the rest of the passage you submitted, it'd be very interesting to re-read! I also suspect it would be a lot longer as you would have mined the character experiences more.

But certainly, don't ever think of giving up.

pH

 

[Ray McCarthy]

To whom is it meant to be strange? The reader? The PoV character? The other characters in the scene?

To reader and the two kids. One of them mentions later (I forget which) that Barens seems too trusting.

in close 3rd person narrative, you don't have to mention that a character has seen something, [etc]

I've a bad habit of drifting between Omni and close 3rd and for each scene need to be clear in my mind. Perhaps I should put a note to myself at the start of each scene (which are often but not always chapters). 1st person is more limiting, but harder for me to lose track of.

 

[The Judge]

I'm not sure how to achieve the middle ground between info dump and almost incomprehensible till you have read 50 pages.

You don't have 50 pages to engage someone picking up a book in a shop, you don't even have 5 pages. And if you were hoping to get an agent and a well-known publisher you probably don't even have 5 sentences. You have to hit the ground running.

I'd suggest in future you might want to refrain from putting up first drafts in Critiques, since by their very nature they're raw and unfinished so there will be lots for people to pick at, which can be very demoralising. Unless there is something specific you need to know (eg "does this rough scene sound at all plausible?") it's far better to wait until you've edited and honed the extract and made it the best you possibly can. Meantime, you might also usefully spend some time in Critiques looking at other people's work and the comments offered to them, which will provide further insights into eg info-dumping/using character experience.

Though the Elves are not like Tolkien's nor the Dryads like Lewis, and the Faerie / Fair folk (the most human like characters) have very little of the Irish Sidhe (though slightly). The four kids on the Quest will be Megra, much the eldest, an Elf, Kevlin (Faerie), Anrhi the girl Dryad can spin threads, and Ghiloric the Wizard boy is a Dwarf, Ghil for short. Megra unlike the others has no "Magic". Perhaps she'll start thinking more! Running away wasn't a choice that can end well for her.

I notice you've done this before in Critiques, ie give full details of your characters and plot etc after someone has made comments on the extract. It sounds harsh to say we're not interested, but, frankly, the point of Critiques is to critique the writing, to give praise if warranted, to point out things which might need to be rethought etc. Your giving further information of this kind doesn't help that process -- after all, remarks about the lack of setting or unrealistic dialogue aren't going to be changed by your pointing out who is or isn't a dwarf. Indeed, this kind of response might actually work against you, since it gives the impression you're not interested in what people think of your writing, only in what you want to tell them about the story, which is, to say the least, a little off-putting.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Right, apologies again for being too hard on you before! I'll provide more constructive feedback here.

Firstly, the text flows smooth and there's no problems with readability so far as I can tell - there were no basic problems with punctuation, spelling, or grammar, that I noticed - which is good, especially when so many people trip over these basics.

However, you're missing the dimension of character POV here, which will give us all the cues that we'll need to get sucked into the story.

For example, Barens notices things, but we get no comment on their importance - so what if the girl might be an elf - why is this important? Were the elves great healers who did something for Barens, or someone he was close to, so that he feels obliged to help? Were the elves ruthlessly chased away, thus making any contact with them dangerous? Don't tell us here - drip this into Barens' POV.

I'm throwing wild guesses here which might show tension and stakes, both of which will help draw the reader in. You have your own ideas, so start putting them in. The caveat is that you may not be entirely clear about the stakes at the moment, so just bear them in mind, perhaps put in a note in the text instead, and move on.

Additionally, it can really help if you give an idea of context early on to help allow the reader settle down to root themselves into the story and build up familiar cues around the ones you directly provide. For example, Barens runs a stall, but you mention nothing of what he might sell until later - and yet the things that he sells, even types of food, will paint a picture for us, and give an idea of context. Additionally, it would help if there were other environmental cues around the scene setting - you mention various industrial ideas - which could be very briefly mentioned and provide a clear context.

The danger that follows is that there is so much information you could put in, so try and find a balance of what you need the most, and keep a very clear eye on pace.

Ultimately, whatever you are writing should ideally provide an emotional experience to help connect us to Barens, and through him, the story. Because that is what will grab a reader most. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone manipulates reader's emotions brilliantly at the start through a fantastical sense of unfairness and inequality. So be mindful that the emotional experience you create for Barens is what you aim to reflect in the reader - boredom is dangerous at the start of any story, so leap into tension of some kind where possible.

A simple example for illustration purposes only:

Barens was placing the oranges on his stall, cursing the smoke from the chimney stacks that filled the dirty streets with even more unpleasant smells, when he saw what looked like a fugitive approach.

The reason for the above - which I'm not going to claim is very good - is to simply illustrate how you can put context in quickly, and lead into tension.

Overall, it's not so much that the piece is bad, so much as that it's missing some of the key elements that will help bring this story more alive. 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes might be an especially good writing book to look at, as it's relatively short and succinct, and highlights a lot of easy pitfalls.

Hope that helps.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Meantime, you might also usefully spend some time in Critiques looking at other people's work and the comments offered to them

Yes. followed a lot, not just the ones where I have commented. Very enlightening

Your giving further information of this kind doesn't help that process

I appreciate that's the case.

will be lots for people to pick at, which can be very demoralising.

Well an antidote to sycophantic fans. I think I might find it more demoralising at a later stage.

I do appreciate the input and I may even understand and take on board some of it when I realise it's not blood and only red ink

o much information you could put in, so try and find a balance of what you need

I think I've spotted something!

An Ah Ha!
The people that know me personally may be actually seeing stuff I haven't written!

So I have to get more of the environment description (which I see clearly) and more of what the character is really seeing and thinking (which I know clearly) but without writing an encyclopaedia. No digressing into how the economy works, why Elves & Dwarves & Dryads bother with the exploitive & manipulative Faerie etc etc.

I'll save these pages in the "greenies" folder, press on with turning plot, events list and summary into story with these comments in mind and revise this and repost and then you can tell me how totally I've missed the point, or got some of it right or whatever.



.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Nice ah-ha moment! We all have stuff we know about our world that we don't put in the story. It's good we do, it makes our world rounder and stronger, but the reader wants the story not the breakdown of the economy. Onwards, young jedi. And no giving up. That's the first rule of being a writer, keeping going even if it hurts.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I can't resist ... Here are just a few revisions, to see am I going in the right direction? Then I'm going to press on.

It was just after dawn with dew on the cobbles and Barens had just finished setting up his stall when he saw the two street urchins come over and stare at the food. Normally street kids would wait till the market was crowded. Only a couple of other traders had set-up, folk like him from outside the city that had arrived the night before. He moved a jar of truffles from near the edge and adjusted the stack of salami style sausages.


"Show me your coin," said Barens, "before you even think of touching!" He moved back the cured dried beef that was sold by transparent wafer thin slice. An expensive item to lose.


"Ain't got none," said Kevlin. "Me and my brother's starving."


"You should be in the Dalrinat City Institute for the Poor." Barens was curious because the dirty clothes with the odd rent were expensive. The taller lad that had spoken looked just like Lord Aldiare.


"It's full," said Kevlin, "anyways, it's like slavery, we'd never leave. I don't want to end buried in their cabbage patch."


"Where's your parents?"


"Me mum was a Doxie and two days ago someone strangled her."


"I'm Barens," he said, "what are your names?" He thought this was very unlikely or it would have been mentioned last night in the Livery Stable. Crime was rare and prime material for gossip.


"I'm Kevlin and this here, my younger brother is Meg ... Meggels."


"Either your mother was very inadequate or you've been on the street a lot longer than two days. Meggels doesn't much look like you either."


"Maybe we has different dads."


"Meggels?" What kind of a name was that? he thought after inadvertently repeating it.


"He don't really talk, Mister Barens," explained Kevlin, "You know, upset about it all."


Barens peered at 'Meggels'. He had his head bowed and a ragged sun hat. He'd bet good coin that the much smaller, supposed younger brother was an Elf girl, maybe even older than Kevlin. No regular Dalrinat Street urchin would be taking care of an Elf. "Would you like some sausage left over from last night?"


He produced it from his bag and cut it in half. He set the parts on the table near the back of his wagon.


"Thanks!" said Kevlin and wolfed it down.


'Meggels' just stared at it. Just as he expected, as an elf would rather starve than eat meat or dairy.


"Perhaps Meggels would prefer a stale bread roll left over from my supper last night?"


He set it out and it was snatched and quickly eaten. The pale, smooth, long slim fingers had neat manicured nails and showed no evidence of manual labour.


"Thanks," said Kevlin.


"It's going to get busy in a short while," he said, "go and wash in the Wagon and you can help serve. I'm lacking an assistant just at the minute. If you are any good, then I'll give you some lunch."


"What about later?" said Kevlin. "I can count and read, so I can help serve. Meggels can tidy and restock?"


"We'll discuss later when it's later." He watched them carefully as they washed with his jug, basin and cloth.


"Meggles," he said, "you sit at the wall on the crate there. You can clear up any wrappers and chase any overly bold birds."


Kevlin spoke politely and properly to the customers dropping the street accent and grammar, which had sounded a bit dubious to Barens anyway. Perhaps Kevlin had run away from somewhere, maybe there would be a reward. But the silent Elf girl was a puzzler. He kept half an eye on Kevlin, but he was competent at serving, weighing, reading shopping lists of servants, and counting the coins. Trade was brisk as he was well known and had a good reputation. Tomorrow he would be back in his own shop in the nearby town of Horlinsk. Once a week he came for market day, the evening before, to sell his preserves (jams and pickles), cured sausages and salamis, dried cured meats, nuts, dried fungi (truffles) and sweetmeats. He began to think maybe he was wrong as Meggels brought out more dried meat products from the wagon. Perhaps just a strange girl or very odd boy and not an elf at all. They ate lunch as they worked, though Meggels brewed tea for them. Meggels ate little, and again nothing with meat or dairy. Kevlin obviously enjoyed his sausage and cheese in a bread stick.


It was dusk. Soon the very few oil lamps would be lit. Quickly they packed up.


"What now?" said Kevlin.


"Do you want to come and work for me in Horlinsk?" said Barens. "I can't get any staff due to the War."


"Maybe if Meggels can come and wants to."


"Meggels can come," he said, "as I'm short of staff. I buy the nuts and fungi from Elves of course. Either of you speak any Elvish languages?"


"When do we go?" said Kevlin, ignoring the question.


"First Light," said Barens. "I'll loan you a couple of blankets and you can sleep under the wagon. Then the livery stable boy will be here at dawn with the horses."


Barens fervently hoped that Meggels was an Elf and could help as his partner was the only person he knew that could negotiate in Elvish and had managed to fall off his horse and break his neck. He'd always been clumsy. The special underground fungus and the choice nuts from the Elves was a nice extra bit of profit with no actual extra work. Of course both was in theory seasonal supplies, but they kept well. It would be the season soon enough, summer was waning.


Kevlin helped him harness the beasts the next morning. Meggels just watched.
Now, another little test Barens thought ...


"Would either of you like to ride up front or in the back?" said Barens.


"I'd love to sit on the board and watch you drive," said Kevlin, "but Meggels didn't sleep so well, he'd like to lie down in the back if possible?"


"Fine," he said.


Either Kevlin wasn't running away from anyone likely to see him here, or he'd forgotten to be stealthy. Meggels was obviously the one on the run, which was very odd for an Elf.


They didn't talk on the three hour journey, though occasionally Barens pointed out a landmark, or a wild animal and tried to start a conversation a few times. Kevlin obviously wasn't in the mood for conversation.


Eventually as they came near the town gate Barens insisted.


"Kevlin," he said, "I can't take you on as an employee without knowing a bit more. What's the truth? You're no Doxie's child, you're no street kid either."


"I can't speak for Meggels," said Kevlin, "Unfortunately my mother was the posher kind of Doxie, it was rather longer ago than I suggested, four months. Meggels and I have been helping each other out."


The guard at the gate recognised Barens but insisted on papers anyway.


"Who's the boy?"


"My new Apprentice."


"Mister Barens was kind enough to hire me in Dalrinat after a try out," said Kevlin. "I'm Kevlin Kolrinos of Dalrinat."


"I guess that's OK then."


They passed in and turned off the main street then into the back yard of Barens establishment, a small meat processing building, stores, stables and shop on the main street with accommodation above.


Kevlin managed the beasts and rubbed them down. Meggels helped the assistant unload what was left in the wagon and they backed it into a store.


"Right," said Barens, "Breakfast and some answers."


"Tell him," said Meggels.

 

[Brian G Turner]

This is better - but now just worry about getting your first draft done.

 

[tinkerdan]

Hi Ray,

I liked this, but when I look at it and read it I see a wall of dialogue and I think in part that it might be some of the problem people have. What I mean by that is that you are relying on dialogue to carry the reader through what you think is happening and it might require a bit of body language to help. You know the subtext in the conversations because you wrote them, but the reader is like the poor fellow who is listening and only hearing what is going on rather than seeing some of the cues that might help. This makes the whole story become a conundrum because it's too easy to read in or out what one might.

Where you might know someone is being conniving or playing dumb you might want to take a moment to look at something like the emotion thesaurus by Angela Ackerman and Becca Puglisi to find some visual cues to give the reader. Even those younger readers will be able to key into some of that more easily than trying to glean it from the dialogue.

I know you don't want to talk over their heads and you don't want to talk down; it's hard to find that middle ground. But you do have to gain their interest and I think it would help to animate the characters a bit more with aspects that might show more of what they might really be thinking or where they are coming from by their movement and expression. You don't need to come out and explain it all or lead them by the hand but some bits of maybe rubbing the hands; furrowing the brow; winking; pursing the lips and crossing their fingers behind their backs. Just those little cues that say something more than the words.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Thanks.
I'll have to put a bit more visuals in there.

I'm into ch4 (in so much as the chapters are just changes of place / scene really at this stage) and I now have the 4th teenager. I'll keep this in mind when I revise all my snippits into one story (at 1st draft stage all is separate files, one file has a list of events & Plot and gets the filenames listed).

don't want to talk over their heads and you don't want to talk down; it's hard to find that middle ground

My theory is do just "remember" the story and then write it as if I was telling it to one of my own kids.
Now that they are twice as old as teens (approx), they of course don't know everything any more and and can make conversation.
This summer my eldest grandchild will be eight. But his mummy says my stories (so far) are too grown up for him. He's off the schools scale for reading age.
Maybe she'll let him try this one.

I'm deliberately using rarer terms on some occasions.

Spoiler: Later in Ch1

Kevlin doesn't actually know what a Doxie is, someone mentioned it at the inquest. The other characters decide not to enlighten him as his mother wasn't one.

The story seems to have developed sentience, two characters have decided to solve a mystery, it wasn't my idea.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I think all it really needs is the addition of more beats. Your dialogue is very well written it was something I noticed on the first piece. And especially with junior fiction there is nothing wrong with a dialogue heavy story. However, for a story that isn't finished I think it is really good.

EG: (This is rubbish just an example of how beats can be added)
"What now?" Kevlin dashed out of the caravan. "I've finished." His face was coated in sweat and he wiped it with his hand. Whatever this kid was or was not he certainly was no work shy.

"Do you want to come and work for me in Horlinsk?" By now Barens was interested and he studied the boy, trying to discern the secrets but none were forthcoming. "I can't get any staff due to the War."

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Yes, it's the tail end of summer ...
(do Faerie sweat or perspire? )

 

[Hex]

Yes, it's the tail end of summer ...
(do Faerie sweat or perspire? )

They glow.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I'm sure that it's the proud, overbearing, arrogant elves that glow. They claim Dwarves sweat.

 

[tinkerdan]

For answers to this and so many things you never wanted to know about faerie.

Yes, it's the tail end of summer ...
(do Faerie sweat or perspire? )

https://books.google.com/books?id=D...8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=do fairies sweat&f=false

Beware of TMI

 

[AnyaKimlin]

You could have them sparkle I hear that can make for a popular read.