Third Person Limited Omniscient!

argenianpoet

old as time and space
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
98
Location
Good ideas come from the inspirations of the mind.
When writing short stories, does the same rule apply about head-hopping, or is it a different set of rules? I am writing a story in which both characters are Main Characters and both stories are vital to the effect of the story. Can third-person omniscient be applied to a short story effectively? I am looking for real insight here on when third-person Omniscient works best.

Secondly, can anyone explain to me how in the heck a story can be third person omniscient if the scenes are still confined to one POV character?:confused: This is bugging me a great deal, because I thought Omniscient was going inside other character's heads and exposing unseen actions that the Main Character does not know. If you are still confined to one POV in a scene, then how can it be omniscient? I mean, really? Just to clue you in, I am being told this by several people. Thanks in advance.
 
argenianpoet said:
When writing short stories, does the same rule apply about head-hopping, or is it a different set of rules?

Generally, I would say it applies more so in shorts, as they tradional work best with a tight focus (one moment in time in one viewpoint character's life) but there are no hard and fast rules and experimenting with the form often pays dividends, but it might be harder to make it work well.

I am writing a story in which both characters are Main Characters and both stories are vital to the effect of the story. Can third-person omniscient be applied to a short story effectively? I am looking for real insight here on when third-person Omniscient works best.

Well, I would look closely at your story idea and what you want to achieve and ask yourself do you really need two viewpoint charracters? I'm not saying it won't work and can't be done, but if the same story works with one as the mainviewpoint and the other as a secondary character it might be more effective (unless your delibartly going for the a Rashomon type effect, seeing the same stroy from different perspectives).

As to Omniscient being applied to shorts, depends on your definition of short, these days most of my shorts are typically 1,000 - 4,000 words other people consider 10,000 - 20,000 words to be short. Omiscient gives a good perspective on a large, epic scale story if your following a story over ten, 100,000 word books in omiscient the head hopping won't be that jarring (if handled well) in a tightly focused 4,000 worder it might not work so well.

Secondly, can anyone explain to me how in the heck a story can be third person omniscient if the scenes are still confined to one POV character?:confused: This is bugging me a great deal, because I thought Omniscient was going inside other character's heads and exposing unseen actions that the Main Character does not know. If you are still confined to one POV in a scene, then how can it be omniscient? I mean, really? Just to clue you in, I am being told this by several people. Thanks in advance.

This is tricky (for me at least, it's a few years since I read Orson scot cards Character's and Viewpoint), but I'll try to unravel the question.

Well in first person every scene will be in your narrators pov so you can never know what other characters thoughts are.

In straight third person you typically don't even know what your main viewpoint character's inner thoughts are let alone other charcters.

In third person limited, you get some penetration and access to your main character's inner thoughts, but not the other characters, so you can have your character suspect someone has lied but the reader doesn't always know if the character has the right of it.

In omniscient you can change character to character within the scene and your reader can know what every character really thinks (as opposed to what they might be saying to your other characters). So you can go directly from the hero questioning the villian, the villian replying and thinking what a fool the hero is, back to hero thinking, great I'm glad we sorted that out...

...however Omisceient can be confusing if not handled well and also a bit inelegant, so in Third person limited omiscient you get the best of all worlds.

You stick to one viewpoint character per scene (Third Person) so there is no confusion, and things stay clear, but in the the next scene you can go to another character to get a different side of the story (Omiscient) in each scene you can know the viewpoint character's inner thoughts (limited) so, looking at the story as a whole instead of the individual scenes you have third person limted omniscient.

None of the above are definitive answers it's something I'm a bit fuzzy on my self, check out Orson Scot Card's Characters and Viewpoint if you can get hold of a copy it explains it all in great detail (I just can't remeber it is all).

As to should you try writing the story this way, my answer would be yes, always yes. Even if the story doesn't work, you'll learn a lot in the attempt and IMHO, that's what it's always about, the next story, and the next, and the next, never be afraid to try something different.
 
PenDragon said:
...however Omisceient can be confusing if not handled well and also a bit inelegant, so in Third person limited omiscient you get the best of all worlds.

You stick to one viewpoint character per scene (Third Person) so there is no confusion, and things stay clear, but in the the next scene you can go to another character to get a different side of the story (Omiscient) in each scene you can know the viewpoint character's inner thoughts (limited) so, looking at the story as a whole instead of the individual scenes you have third person limted omniscient.

None of the above are definitive answers it's something I'm a bit fuzzy on my self, check out Orson Scot Card's Characters and Viewpoint if you can get hold of a copy it explains it all in great detail (I just can't remeber it is all).

As to should you try writing the story this way, my answer would be yes, always yes. Even if the story doesn't work, you'll learn a lot in the attempt and IMHO, that's what it's always about, the next story, and the next, and the next, never be afraid to try something different.

Hey PenDragon, and by the way, cool name! I think you did a superb job of answering my questions and I thank you for taking out the time to give me this valuable insight. I will most definitely check out Orson Scott Card's Character's and Viewpoints as this sounds like a book that might solve a lot of my confusion. Thanks.

Another question for you: are there any books on show and tell that I might pick up and read also, because this is another issue for me?

I always experiment and I love to try new viewpoints, styles, etc. It is always about the next story I agree, and hopefully that story will be better than the last. Your advice is well recieved, thank you PenDragon!:D
 
Glad to be of help arge


argenianpoet said:
Another question for you: are there any books on show and tell that I might pick up and read also, because this is another issue for me?

I don't think there are any books totally dedicated to this one subject all though most general writing books tend to cover the subject.

Did you read the articles I linked in your Show and Tell thread? What in particular about Show/Tell are you struggling with?
 
I just don't know when I am doing it and when I am not. I think I just tend to tell the story. Example:

Tom walked down the deserted coridor, looking for clues that might help him solve the riddle of the dragon. Above his head, laterns lit the way and cast a strange glow on the floor in front of him. He felt like he was not alone, and at any given moment the enemy was going to appear in front of him by some strange magic. He had barely escaped the men in white suits earlier, and it seemed that their force was bigger and stronger than he could have ever imagined. He walked quietly now, trying not to make noise. His heart beat in his chest and he clenched the sword tighter. The only clue in his possession was the amulet tucked away in his pocket, and the inscriptions on it were too hard to read. He was alone in his present situation with no one to turn to for help. Sadly, there was no one that he could trust and that's what scared him the most. Up ahead there was a bend and he readied the sword in self-defense. 'Here we go...' he thought, pushing all of the bad thoughts aside and focusing on the reality before him.

The way that I understand this is tell is Tom did this and he did that and so on. Okay, highlight what is show and tell in this segment with two different colors so I can distinguish between the two, or is all of it tell? See, even when I try to show stuff critiquers are telling me that it's still not show. I am just massively confused and can't seem to get a hold on this one yet. By the way, those were superb articles and they did enlighten me, but my question is do you have to show once or twice out of every paragraph and if so what do you show?

Tom walked down the deserted coridor, looking for clues that might help him solve the riddle of the dragon. How does show sound and tell sound or do they sound the same as in Tom walked or Tom sauntered, heck I don't even know how to ask you what is confusing me. Sorry. I think my problem lies in the mechanics of this, but I am not sure. Maybe show sounds like tell and that's why I am not catching it. Or is show just meant for character's body language and emotions, thoughts, words, etc. I hope I have not lost you, because I really don't know how to word any of this and the more that I write the deeper I realize I am analytically dumb.
 
This is another toughie, your para is pretty much 100% tell. Lets just take this part...

Tom walked down the deserted coridor, looking for clues that might help him solve the riddle of the dragon. Above his head, laterns lit the way and cast a strange glow on the floor in front of him. He felt like he was not alone, and at any given moment the enemy was going to appear in front of him by some strange magic.

It's not a case of changing walked to something more colourful like sauntered, more a case of vividly putting the reader in the scene rather than telling them about it. So..."Tom walked down the deserted corridor" tells the reader tom walked down a deserted corridor, but..."Each step Tom took echoed loudly in the errie tomblike stilness of the corridor." is a bit more vivid, more evocative and puts the reader in the story more.

The next line..."looking for clues that might help him solve the riddle of the dragon." this line is problematic and hard for me to explain why, because coming in an excerpt like this so out of context I don't know everything I'd need to know to fix (ie what the readers already know about the riddle of the dragon etc) however taken at face value it's very telly exposition ideally you'd show he was looking for clues by writing him moving slowy, caustiously, perhpas stooping to examine something (again hard to describe how he looks for clues when I don't know the riddle or what clues he's looking for). It's in the wrong place too, the bit about the lanterns should come after the walking down the corridor (both scene setting) then the clue searching (an important plot element) then the feeling of being not alone (atmosphere/suspense) would be a more logical order.

Anyway next line..."Above his head, laterns lit the way and cast a strange glow on the floor in front of him." this is the least telly part and could be left as is, but could be more vivid such as something like..."The rusted lanterns cast as much sahdow as light. Their flickering glow crisscrossed the falgstones before him in a paterns so mesmorsing he almost missed the huge gashes on the wall. Claw marks. The dragon had passed this way. "

next line "He felt like he was not alone, and at any given moment the enemy was going to appear in front of him by some strange magic." A coldness came upon him, he felt the his shoulders tighten, a prickling of the skin, a drop of sweat trickled ice cold and galacial down his back, his hand gripped tightly on the hilt of his sword. When he turned, no one was behind him, the corridor was still empty, no terror waited lurking in the dark, no sulpherous wiff of sorcery, no enemy had been summoned, except that one enemy named fear, yet something, some instinct told him, this was no groundless fear."

So, this is very telly...

Tom walked down the deserted coridor, looking for clues that might help him solve the riddle of the dragon. Above his head, laterns lit the way and cast a strange glow on the floor in front of him. He felt like he was not alone, and at any given moment the enemy was going to appear in front of him by some strange magic.

My version...

Each step Tom took echoed loudly in the errie tomblike stilness of the Corridor. The rusted lanterns cast as much shadow as light. Their flickering glow crisscrosed the flaggstones before him in paterns so mesmerising that he almost missed the huge gashes on the wall. Claw marks. The dragon had passed this way.

As he knelt to examine the markings, an unatural coldness came upon him. He felt his shoulders tighten, a prickling of the skin, slowly a drop of sweat trickled ice cold and galatial down his back. His hand went to his sword hilt, but when he turned no one was behind him. The corridor was still empty, no terror waited lurking in the dark, no sulhperous wiff of sorcery hung in the air, no enemy had been summoned, except that one enemy that men named fear.

Although not 100% show (which is pretty much impossible and not what you're aiming for) this version is more evocative and puts the reader into the story more than telling does.

The trick is vivid, evocative and visceral writing, using the five senses helps make it more vivid and rather than telling the reader what a character is feeling or doing, you show them by describing actions, reactions, etc.

As you can see, showing takes longer than telling, this is why you have to choose what to tell and what to show. The important scenes you show, the less important stuff you tell.

Example, a simple story of revenge.

Your hero has spent a lifetime searching for the six fingered villian that murdered his father, then given up in despair and turned to drink :D. Oneday he overhears someone talking about "The man with six fingers." He asks some questions, tracks the man down and kills him finally getting revenge, yet feels no sense of redemption and returns to drink.

See there you are, I've told you the story in 61 words, but if I showed you it it would take me 3-4 thousand words, perhpas more.

So you have your story, now it's about deciding what to show and what to tell.

Where to start? With any story a good opening is needed. In this case we can start in medias res, with our character in the middle of a drunken tavern brawl with three young, fit, and sober men. This opening allows us to show him being an excellent and fearless warrior, if it wasn't for the fact he was a drunk. That's our opening a nice chunk of show that reveals some character and gives us a good high action start.

What next? Well now we've had the high action start we can slow the pace down, and get in some of that exposition, the readers will accept some exposition now and as the character licks his wound and nurses his pint we can get in some backstory, even this can be shown as a scene by having him complain that it's the six fingered man fault he's in the situation he's in, another drinker can ask why, he can tell them it's a bit of cheap technique but it's sellable. This part has more tell the show packed opener.

Perhaps the other drinker asked him about the six fingered man, becasue he had just seen him. At this stage the writing might get more vivid, be a scene that shows the hero's reaction to this news, shows him questioning the the other drinker at length.

What now? He could go straight for the six fingered man, still a drunken wreck or perhaps try and sort himself out. Suppose I decide on the second option? Well in real life that might take days, even weeks and I wouldn't want to show all that, but I could tell it in a paragraph or two. Then again, I might consider this getting straight an important part of the story's redemptive theme and write two little scenes, the first day of training, the shakes, throwing up, hardly able to handle his sword, giving up and drinking, linked by a para or two of tell to a scene showing the hero clean shaven, strong, healthy, determined, steely gaze of the hero, etc. (in a movie this is where the montage music would kick in).

Now the hero seeks his nemesis for the final conflct, I could show the search if I thought it was important, but I don't. He knows where the six fingered man is now, the guy in the tavern told him, the serach isn't important so a para of tell gets my hero from home to wherever the villian is.

Now the final conflcit, this of course is the payoff, the big end all and be all climax and should be a dam good, emotional charged scene, ending when the villian is vanquished and the hero is triumphant.

Now I could end it there, but I'm not that kind of storyteller no happy edning for my heroes, so I would have one more little scene, perhaps linked from the end of the fight with a six-months later kinda tell, and here we show our hero, a brokendown old drunk again, proving my story premise; Taking your lifetimes revenge doesn't lead to redemtion.

See what I mean about choices? Another writer would have made different choices to tell the same story (so might I on another day) perhaps showing some things I told, and telling things I'd shown.

I've rambled again, same disclaimer, I'm not 100% authority on this or any other writing techniques, but hope it helps anyway.

Cheers,

Lee.
 
Sorry Lee, but I just have to say this:

I am Indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Now prepare to die.

:D

Actually, very helpful story outlines.
 
dustinzgirl said:
Sorry Lee, but I just have to say this:

I am Indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Now prepare to die.

:D

Inconcievable! :D
 
PenDragon,

I must say that you are very good at explaining all of this stuff! And yes that really helped me grasp how I need to write. I can't say that I will conquer this over night, but maybe in time I will. I want to thank you deeply for taking out your time to write that answer. You are an excellent teacher and I stand in awe at your truly awesome ability. I know that my drive, my passion for writing will lead me in the right direction, because it is my ultimate dream. I close by saying that your one post here has helped me more than anything I have read thus far on this subject.

CHEERS!

Mike:p
 
Don't, you'll make me blush! :eek:

I've yet to get a print publication under my belt, paid or unpaid and most of the few ezine pubs I've had have been mainly unpaid and at very small and obscure ezines (some of questionable merit too). I have however, been lucky enough to learn from a good teacher myself, so have a decent grasp of theory. Glad to be able to pass on some of the knowledge he shared with me.

The most important thing is to write, write, write, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, and read, read, read.

At some stage it's also helpful to pop your work in an envelope and send it to a publisher. :D
 
Check our Ken Macleod's Cosmonaut Keep. He has 2 storylines, one is first person, the other is third. It makes a pretty nice blend.

Also, when I write (this is a matter of personnal choice) I like to swap around and play with point of views. I find it gives my texts a special kind of dynamics.

====> [FONT=&quot]He saw his hands had balled and were tightly grabbing at the couch. His breath was faster than usual. He could start to hear his blood thumping in his ears under the stress.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] He needed money. Now. Quickly.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Think, stupid brain, give me an idea. How can I get that much cash quickly.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] No, not the dog fights. The dog fights are too random for me to rely on them for that much money. I need something else, something more stable, more reliable. Think. THINK![/FONT]
 

Similar threads


Back
Top