Thoughts on Leiber (An Introduction by New Chatter)

[McMurphy]

I am new to this forum so please bare with me if I should seem silly or make unintentionally ridiculous posts.

Currently, I am rereading "Ill Met in Lankhmar" by Fritz Leiber (White Wolf Publishing edition, 1995) and would like to know your thoughts on the following questions:

1.) Have you (the counter to the royal "we") read any of Leiber's work before?

2.) What are your feelings in regards to the characters Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser?

3.) Considering that Leiber and Tolkien are of the same generation of fantasy writers, how do you believe that their comparitive and contrasting approaches to fantasy writing are important? In what ways?


Thank you for your time, and I hope everyone takes interest in this subject.

 

[Foxbat]

Hi McMurphy. I wouldn't worry too much about silly postings - I've made a few so you're in good company.

As for Fritz Leiber. I've only read a book of his short stories (Ship of Shadows) and I like what I read. Primarily, Leiber has one quality which is sometimes sadly lacking - a touch of originality.

I think it's difficult to compare Tolkien and Leiber - Tolkien took a body of work that was already there (Norse Myths, Wagner's Ring Cycle) and transformed them into the gigantic saga which we all know and love.

I think in popularity, Tolkien will always have the edge because of the draw of familiarity between his worlds and the myths of our own.

Leiber, on the other hand, tends to approach subjects from a slightly unorthodox angle - and this is his biggest strength. Also, the diversity of his ideas (check out his short stories The Big Time, Gonna Roll the Bones and Belsen Express to see what I mean).

All in all a fine and sometimes underrated writer - one of those people I keep meaning to read more of but never seem to get round to. Perhaps your post has given me the kick I need to get some more of his stuff.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Hi McMurphy, and welcome to the chronicles-network.

As for the question - I'm really glad to see Fritz Leiber raised as a topic at last.

I haven't actually read any of his novels or short stories - but I do have a collection of limited release quality comics which were made of Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser in the 1990s (Note to self: was if Dark Horse comics??).

They certainly made for good reading, and the character interplay and humour was pretty great. I did have Leiber on my "to read" list at one point, but for some reason I never got around to it. I'm sure I've seen him well-spoken for by various writers.

I'm not sure there is a Leiber vs Tolkien argument - they do seem to cover quite different aspects of the fantasy genre, though that's an assertion that would really need supporting or countering from someone who has actually read any of the novels.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Ihave only read a few Leiber short stories in various anthologies. The ones that spring to mind are Coming Attraction and Gonna Roll the Bones. He seems to have written as much Sf as fantasy, from what I can make out.


I haven't read any of his fantasy works, but perhaps I should. I am interested in approaches to fantasy that do not derive from a Tolkienesque background (one reason I cherish ER Eddisson's works, despite his thick prose and habit of drowning his already convoluted plot in even more convoluted philosophising).

This site seems a good introduction to his work: http://www.lankhmar.demon.co.uk/ and the brief overview here seemed good too: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/zenith/134/leiber.htm

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I just remebered another short story of his - Three Ghosts in Hamlet. It was an amazingly vividly written story that recreated the small world of a second-rate travelling troupe of actors in great depth in a very short space, and also managed to be a very succesful ghost story in the traditional sense.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Eeee! I've since read 4 of Leiber's Lankhmar books - just a year down the line. Ain't I cool? Not as cool as McMurphy who made his entry into the forum by talking about Old Man Lieber, though.

 

[Leto]

BTW, any of you read the Wanderer http://www.ffbooks.co.uk/n0/n793.htm ?

Compared to Tolkien, Fritz Leiber's work was much more diversified : humor and fantasy with the Lankhmar series, horror short stories and sci-fi novels.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

No, but the synopsis is neat:

All eyes were watching the eclipse of the Moon when the Wanderer came. Only a few scientists had even suspected its presence, and then, suddenly, it was there, dwarfing and threatening the Moon and wreaking havoc with Earth's tides and weather. The huge, garishly coloured artificial world has only stopped in the Solar system to refuel but its mere presence is a catastrophe for the inhabitants of Earth, who all struggle in their different ways to survive the climatic chaos it unleashes. A brilliant description of the of the days of chaos as total destruction threatens the Earth.

I've read an sf novel by him - The Green Millenium - a truly delightful tale of a little green cat who changes the world. There's a Tor double of two of his horror novels I hope to pick up soon. There's somethung masterful about Leiber's combination of urbane sophistication and engagned-ness with huan concerns. Although some of the Fafhrd and Grey Bouser books can get a little - juvenile? - in their depiction of the protagonists' more amorous exploits.

 

[Leto]

Although some of the Fafhrd and Grey Bouser books can get a little - juvenile? - in their depiction of the protagonists' more amorous exploits.

That was the time of moral censorship in Hollywood and in US publishers (look at the comics for example) at the same time.

Just a remark to bump a good thread.

 

[Jay]

Fritz Leiber is IMHO simply perhaps the greatest sword/sorcery writer in the history of Fantasy (with all do respect to Robert E. Howard) and one of the best period. I have m,ade it a mission of mine to find orignial prints of Leiber's in prime conditon (thus far only haveing 4 of the Lankhmar), but I do have the bulk of his work in various collections that have come out over the last 15 or so years, and a a magazine that depiocts his original (as far as I know) Grey Mouser and Farfhd tale called Unknown Magazine (If anyone knows wehre mroe in good shape are let me know, if they are in good conditon and reputable) price is is irrelevant .

Leiber was also a noted wrter of various science fiction and horror works and a collection entitled The Black Gondolier, whcih I highly recommend.

2.) What are your feelings in regards to the characters Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser?

Possibly the greatest duo in fantasy? Leiber's work, as Foxbat touches on wouldn't have the appeal of Tolkien, but I take it from a different view point, and I actually take the stance opposite of some. The Lord of the Rings (this is an observation, no slight, I love Tolkien's work) is far more juvenile than Leiber's work. Leiber's characters had a hint of reality in them and not driven by extreme uniform morale poles, and are credited for actually being more mature and representative of human nature then most work prior to him or his contemporaries.

Love Leiber's work.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I'd have to agree with Ainulindale's view. Leiber's characters are more grown-up than Tolkien's in many ways - or at least more like real grown-ups.


I have most of the orginal Ace paperback collections of these stories - and a neat Book Club edition of the last volume, The Knight and Knave of Swords. What's amazing is that these books, written mostly as short stories and novellas over a long period of time, present such a cohesive and ultimately sequential picture of these two characters.

 

[GOLLUM]

OK, I've read the first and second Fantasy Masterwork collections of Frtiz Leiber's books of Lankmahr and enjoyed them for their witty and oft times urbane approach. These are classic Sword and Sorcery tales that are often farcical and sometimes tradgic as they tell of the exploits of the odd couple Fafhrd (Leiber's alter ego) and the Grey Mouser, who someone on this or another forum neatly equated to Lethal Weapon in a fantasy setting or words to that effect. YES sometimes the described actions of the characters and the stories can be downright silly but in a strange way this in one sense at least adds a certain appeal or charm to Leiber's writing for me anyway. However as also noted the thought behind thier actions is often quite considered and the characters themsleves appear to be fairly intelligent and realistically potrayed.

Not being heavily into Sci Fi I've not really read any of his work in this genre although I'm aware of them..

I've read some of his short horror fiction including the classic novel Our Lady of Darkness, which is a good supernatural horror tale. The main character in the story suffers from alcoholism just as Leiber did for a significant portion of his life. It is essentially a homage to horror writer Montague R. James but with lots of other references to his major influences including probalby his greatest single influence HP Lovecraft.

I'll be doing a detailed Bio on Fritz Leiber in the second half of this year so stay tuned.

As far as comparing him to Tolkien goes that's not so easy because he's more Sword and Sorcery as well as Sci Fi and Horror whereas Tolkien is more focused on fantasy per se and I suspect much better known by the mainstream than Leiber was or is ever likely to be.

Hope this adds something to this interesting thread..

 

[Leto]

As far as comparing him to Tolkien goes that's not so easy because he's more Sword and Sorcery as well as Sci Fi and Horror whereas Tolkien is more focused on fantasy per se and I suspect much better known by the mainstream than Leiber was or is ever likely to be.

100 % agreed. The two IMO can't be compared because they simply don't have the same background - nordic and british myths for Tolkien, parody of such myths and contemporary world for Leiber - nor the same audience. Tolkien's Middle Earth first auditors and readers were his kids, and he appeal to the sense of wonder in his readers (young and grown-up alike). Leiber writes these tales for older teens and grown-up men : he appeals more to their testosterone (although in a juvenile way in some exploits as JP noted), and a certain sense of irony. More like the Morcook's Elric novels audience.

Gollum, I thought Grey mouser was Leiber's main alter ego ?

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Gollum is right. Fahfrd is based on Leiber, and Mouser on Harry Fischer, Leiber's college roommate, I think.

EDIT: Yay! Here's a link about this - http://tkb.mpl.com/~tkb/fritz-leiber.html

 

[Leto]

Must have had good time in college then. Thanks for the info.

 

[GOLLUM]

100 % agreed. The two IMO can't be compared because they simply don't have the same background - nordic and british myths for Tolkien, parody of such myths and contemporary world for Leiber - nor the same audience. Tolkien's Middle Earth first auditors and readers were his kids, and he appeal to the sense of wonder in his readers (young and grown-up alike). Leiber writes these tales for older teens and grown-up men : he appeals more to their testosterone (although in a juvenile way in some exploits as JP noted), and a certain sense of irony. More like the Morcook's Elric novels audience.

Gollum, I thought Grey mouser was Leiber's main alter ego ?

*EDIT* DOH!! Knivesout beat me to the answer...

My main sources confirm that Fafhrd was Leiber's alter ego, while his collaborator Harold Fischer was meant to be the Gray Mouser. Leiber first featured the characters in a story, "Adepts Gambit" but it was rejected with the two characters reappearing in the published story "Two Sought Adventure", in Unknown magazine.

Interestingly enough Fischer is credited with initially coming up with both charaters but that's another story..

Still I could be wrong. I'm sure someone on this forum knows the exact answer like Mr Knivesouts maybe??..

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Heh, that's cool Gollum. Leiber's Lankhmar tales have emerged as a particular area of interest for me, that's why I knew a thing or two for once! For those who do not rely solely on online sources, the info is also confirmed in John Clute's Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction.

Has anyone noticed how much Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork owes to Leiber's Lankhmar?

 

[Leto]

Yep, but as Terry Pratchett himself said

"Bravd and the Weasel were indeed takeoffs of Leiber characters -- there was a lot of that sort of thing in The Colour of Magic. But I didn't -- at least consciously, I suppose I must say -- create Ankh-Morpork as a takeoff of Lankhmar."

on alt.fan.pratchett

officially Ankh-Morport is a takeoff of Buda-Pest, which city inspired Lankhmar ?

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

That's interesting, because so many of the details are alike - the Thieve's Guild and so on. Even the spirit of using a fantastic setting tosatirise the real modern-day world. I suppose Pratchett was a fan, and the atmosphere of Leiber's tales crept deeper into his own imaginings than he consciously realised. Homage rather than rip-off, I'd say.

 

[GOLLUM]

Heh, that's cool Gollum. Leiber's Lankhmar tales have emerged as a particular area of interest for me, that's why I knew a thing or two for once! For those who do not rely solely on online sources, the info is also confirmed in John Clute's Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction.

Has anyone noticed how much Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork owes to Leiber's Lankhmar?

Now don't be too modest mate, I think you have a heck of a lot of literary knowledge, much more than I did at your age...

I'm not as big fan of Pratchett but that's a most interesting comment you make there.

UM..I use a combo of paper-based (i.e. books) and online resources as well as reading or already read works by the authors I like to research HE HE..

Now I did read somewhere in one of Liebers or Fischer's works that Lankmahr was developed by Leiber and Fischer but it was not specifally based on a known place...

Also whilst intially conceptulaized by Fischer and Leiber all but one of the stories Swords Against Wizardry was written by Fritz, this one being penned by Fischer but that's another story again...

OK I'm siging off so till next time folks have a ball!!!!