Problem With Stargate Symbols

[Highlander II]

Originally posted by Koala


That would make the chevrons dual purpose. Now we get to figure out how a glyph represents distance, and possibly use that to help decode th P#L-### thing.

i'm still trying to figure out the planet 'designation' system - you think it starts to make sense, then they tack on an extra number to the end -- or leave off the "L", or it's P#X - ### --

i have noticed that "P" is planet and "M" is moon (all this from the ausgate site b/c all the planet designations are there - so THANX!!!!! Allan!!- and any and all that helped get all that info!)

Highlander II

 

[Koala]

Since they also change the 3rd character (it's not always an "x") figuring that position's purpose might help to further break down the system.

The only thing that makes any sense for the final 3 ( 4 at times) digits is that each one represents a pair of chevrons from a list (ie: 345, 3 = "pair 3" from the list). This would give 6 chevrons and represent all combinations. The lack of high numbers would indicate that htey haven't gone far into the list.

The only way that this would work is if a numbering system used a different base (base 38x38?) nut that wouldn't seem logical. It would, however, supports Carter's statement that the numbering system is based on a binary representation (each pair being a "binary" as in a binary star).

 

[Highlander II]

i had another thought about the DHD while i was watching Stargate tonite --

do you suppose that there might be different glyphs for each galaxy? for instance - we didn't see a device in the 5th Race (b/c the little asgard guy had some nifty device on his hand) for dialing the gate in the Ida galaxy -- so, perhaps our galaxy has one set, Ida has one, and the other galaxies have theirs? just a thought -----

and the binary system Carter describes -- i never thought about it being based on binary stars -- (long time since i did any research in astronomy - like elementary school - bad bad me - being a stargate fan and all)



H2

 

[PTeppic]

Well - to trascribe binary into ASCII only needs 7 bits. So they have 5*7 or 6*7 bits... but you would never need to change - so inconsistency....

[e.g. Argos is P3X-8596 and P34-353J is the tunnels planet in Tok'ra 1 and 2]

And why use binary - ah: alphanumeric only covers 36 glyhps...

 

[Koala]

I agree that the other glychs could represent another galaxy.

If you use the term binary to represent a pairing, as in binary stars, each "digit" would represent a pairing of glyphs.

For example, 1 = glyph 1 and 2, 2 = 1 and 3, 3 = 1 and 4, etc. you'd still have a number much larger than representable by 1 character unless you used something similar to the ASCII table, starting with the "1" so that 36 would be a "z" or "Z" (don't remember the codes right now). Also haven't bothered to figure out how many permutaions there could be and probably won't bother with it. To me it does, however, seem top be the most logical method for 3 "digitd." More logical would have been to use 6 places to represent it and either use a couple extra characters like comma, period, etc, or a couple of the next letters in a different case.

 

[Koala]

(edit : this is going to ramble a bit - i was "brainstorming the idea and you know how that can ramble. at least it shows the train of thought used so others can expand on it)

***

Another possibility is that they've "decided" that certain pairings aren't likely or possible. How they'd come to this conclusion is unknown by me. Maybe the computer ran all the combinations and determined that when they wouldn't lock after encoding. Also, 1 and 2 as a pair wouldn't be the same as 2 and 1.

AHHH!

I was just thinking about x-y-z and x1-y1-z1 for the ordering. It could just as easily be x-x1, y-y1, z-z1. this would explain why there are 3 "coordintates" in the string.

Extrapolating further, since the x-y-z are known for the source planet (with the 7th chevron locking in the point of origin as opposed to the destination - you need a starting point) the x-x1 could represent the distance to the x coordinate in 3d space (where as the 8th chevron represents the distance between galaxies).

Can't you represent a 2nd set of coordinates in 3d space as a distance for each x, y, and z? If they're using something like this then the chevrons might just be numbers in a base 39 and the pairings indicate a bigger number or something since the "source" coordinate is always the same from a given gate. It works conceptually. It would also explain why they know the coordinates of the gate dialing in to the SGC's gate. The gate apparently "knows" where it is (an advanced civilization would be able to build in sensors to determine that from a galactic core - which explains why gates can work from moving ha'tak).

the 4th (and 5th) "extra" value might indicate some additional "drift" factor, or could indicate something hte gate has to "do" to worm its way around certain spcial anomalies ot stellar bodies which would be there. Assumng the "tube" of a wormhole can be affected by stellar phenomenon this and the stellar drift also support this.

remember they said they had to adjust some of the addresses for stellar drift? this would indicate that the addresses are not gate-spcifi or they wouldn't have to make those modifications.

Ok. Over you you, math guys. At least it seems like a valid method for explaining it in fanfic.

 

[PTeppic]

Still trying to get head round maths part...

Originally posted by Koala
The gate apparently "knows" where it is (an advanced civilization would be able to build in sensors to determine that from a galactic core - which explains why gates can work from moving ha'tak).

But this is not the case. In WTSG or follow-up, both Daniel and SGC try to dial out and in (respectively) to Apophis' ha'tak...neither works. But, erm, no spoiler, someone dials out at the end, using Earth as the point of origin, simply because of proximity...

So - the gate does NOT know where it is, but also does have some tolerance - as also seen by the use of the second Earth gate in at least two episodes, using Earth as PoE.

I was going to ask if we can assume gates were not actually designed for use within vehicles, since the DHDs would not have the right symbols for the possible points of origin - but:

a) what is a planet anyway - i.e. a moving planetary body, in at least three degrees of motion (spin, orbit & universal expansion),
b) some very advance races can use the gate in vehicles (e.g. Asgard)
c) there may be none-DHD ways of dialling (which we know can exist)

[Which highlights an error/glitch/anomaly - when {whoever} dials out of Apophis' ha'tak - how did they get the Earth glyph - it should not be on the DHD!]

 

[adele.s]

I think I bent my brain...

I haven't seen anything past the first season, and I'm still stuck trying to figure out just that and the movie... sigh.

In any case, I've assumed that part of the "standard" MALP procedure once Carter's computer team spits out a set of coordinates to try is go through and then to point its camera back at the gate and record all of the symbols on it. That way, the starfield simulation folks back at the SGC with their computer models can figure out what the right sequence is to dial home from that gate, and provide that information to the team before they go.

In Torment of Tantalus, they mention that part of the MALP procedure is to check that the DHD actually is present near the gate, but not that the DHD is checked for functionality... maybe that is because the MALP doesn't have time to do both that and the camera-pan of the 39 gate symbols before the wormhole closes?
-- Adele

 

[PTeppic]

If your still in the first series (mini spoiler for technical stuff)

1

2

3

4

5

in one of the later episodes they discover a wormhole can be kept open for 38 minutes - but I am personally guessing the electric bill for keeping on outgoing gate open is flippin' high. so they close whenever they can!

Agree about the DHD - my further thought is that the point of origin will be in the same position (e.g. outside ring, lowest position, or whatever) on each DHD...? Why move it?

 

[KernalK]

The Chappa'ai Network...

I know I've posted most of this before somewhere, but I can't remember where and so I'll bring it together here.

I hope some other people are subscribed to this thread, 'cos otherwise no one'll read my opus!
========================

I've noticed a similarity in the way I percieve the stargates to work and some kinds of computer network topology...

If we take as assumptions that all the gates have 36 identical glyphs, and the point-of-origin (P-O) is simply a special glyph not used in the addressing is outwardly unique to each gate.

In a small peer-to-peer network, when a node comes online, it broadcasts it's presence to anyone listening. All other nodes now know that traffic can be sent to this node and can be recieved from. The other nodes know that it can be addressed in the standard way (which ever is the chosen communication method in this example). One example is TCP-IP which basically supports one heck of a lot of possible combinations (about 255*255*255*255, a little less) in the form of x.x.x.x (x=any +number <255). Although each section has a finite range of possible values, the total possible range is up over a billion.

How does any of this apply?

The stargate network is very old. We can only guess what was happening in it's early days. We can assume that it is extensible with new gates/addresses, but this probably doesn't happen very often because of the complexity of building your own gate...Cue Tollan smugness...

When someone dials out, say 4.7.18.32.26.12.0 (0 being P-O), the address is broadcast to the network, and gates with corresponding glyphs in the correct position, ie all gates starting with 4, keep an ear out. When the next glyph is dialed, the range of possibilities is reduced, and so on until the range is narrowed to one listening gate, and then the P-O is sent and the wormhole can be opened.

Alternatively, the delay in the dialing finishing and the wormhole opening is caused by the dialing process being non-interactive, that is the whole address is needed before the gate queries the network. If a matching gate is found, the wormhole opens...

This modification to Ethernet/TCP-IP seems to fit the bill, and has the bonus of being originating-body independant, and not needing any external mechanisms to operate.

With regards to dialing out of the host galaxy; it would seem that there are only 36 or possibly 37 remote galaxies accessable without serious (probably impossible) modifications to the gate and possibly network.

I accept that I have changed some of the 'rules' involved, but most rules are arbitrary anyway.

Feel free to examine and discuss, but be nice!

Finished now, carry on!

 

[muzungu]

It is unlikely that the gate symbols are part of a base 39 number system, as in The Fifth Race O'neill uses a baes 8 number system. It is also unlikely that cartesian (x,y,z) coordinates would be used as it is far easier to use a system like spherical polar coordinates which comprises two angles and a distance.

 

[KernalK]

D'oh!

Just read my last post...I think I was asleep at the keyboard! 37 glyphs?

Much sorriness. And I'm supposed to be a geek!

 

[TyrannicFeenix]

In the movie Daniel has never dialed Earth and as such has no idea what the address is until he finds the cartouche on Abydos with the address on it. It would also explain his delay in dialing the gate under fire from in COTG as he would have been highly stressed and remembering a seven glyph address that he still doesn't know by heart would be a little difficult.

 

[Junsui0110]

I think it's more reasonable to assume that the constalations are a point of reference for the path the wormhole takes. It may not need to look exactly right on the planet you're dialing from, as long as you know the path you want to take.
They do explain, frequently throughout the series, that the ancients "came" from earth and spread through this galaxy.
I can't seem to recall if the ancients escaped here from to orai as a new place, or as the origins of the race, and was simply hidden from the orai. I do, however, recall one of the ancienst explaining that the current human civilization is the 3rd incarnation of the race on this planet.
I would reason then, that the stargate, as well as the ancients, originated from Earth. If that is the case, then all stargates would probably share the same reference points, or glyphs.
The only exception of course, being the gates that are extremely far from the original gate. But even then, the glyphs wouldnt need to be different, just dialed in the opposite order.
Early on in the series, they find a building with thousands of addresses, on the first planet they visited. I forget the names, it's the one they killed Ra on.
They plugged those addresses into a computer, and couldn't connect to anything. It took carter a bit to figure out planetary drift. Then suddenly they were able to connect to most of the addresses. I think they explain it like focusing a telescope lense.
I'm not sure how that works, since the gates seem to use a fixed location for the wormhole to travel, and eventually exit from.

One problem I do have with the series is the people moving through the wormhole dont seem to suffer any of the effect that are clearly displayed in the movie.