Why would the Inner ring spin on an incoming wormhole?

[shu_hunter]

Why would the Inner ring spin on an incoming wormhole?
normally on an offworld gate the chevrons just engage. but that doesn't make sense either. An offworld stargate wouldn't know it was being dialed to until the sequence was completed.. it's like a phone somewhere not knowing someone was calling until all the numbers had been pressed on the calling phone.
Maybe the chevrons engage as a warning so nobody gets destroyed in the establishing vortex. That means it must take a time for the wormhole to engage at the recieving end after the wormhole had already been established at the outgoing end.
maybe when all the chevrons are engaged on the outgoing gate an instantaneous info transfer happens between revieving and outgoing. the outgoing says "any1 out there?" and the recieving says "I'm here, engage away!" and the wormhole goes out from the outgoing and as it's travelling the recieving gate says "look out, I'm about to recieve a wormhole!".
If there's no response from the area dialed in, then there's no wormhole.
All this is based on >>it takes time for matter to travel through a wormhole<<. we know this from episodes that show the MALP going through and the computer guy saying "MALP will reach it's destination on 5 seconds." BUT something that supports my theory is when they show an offworld gate and it engages and almost immediately a person or malp or something goes through.
I've completely lost myself in my one-sided discussion.
Oh yeah. why would the inner ring spin on an incoming wormhole?
Could that be our gate's way of saying "I'm recieving a wormhole" instead of chevrons engaging? I dont know how that would work out, but it's possible.
I think I've seen episodes where the gate just suddenly lights up and an incoming wormhole establishes, and episodes where it goes through the lighting up of chevrons.
Anyway. I'm going to stop here because otherwise nobody will bother reading it because it's so long. Thank you so much for those of you who actually get this far.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[Roach]

normally on an offworld gate the chevrons just engage.

On offworld Gates, the DHD does the dialing for you, without having to spin the inner dial. The SGC has no DHD, and so they have to spin the wheel using mechanical stuff. If they didn't have the mechanical stuff, they could still activate the gate by turning it by hand.

Everyone gives too close a comparison between the Stargate and a telephone. It's a good description, sure, as there's dialing and everything. But they are not identical systems. One of the differences is that with a Stargate, you can see the chevrons as they're dialed.

 

[sg14ever]

The Earth one will always spin on an incomming wormhole or an out. And all offworld ones (powered by the dhd) will just lock the chevrons. Why you ask?

Because they power the stargate with there own power. The offworld ones power it with a dhd. The different kind of power must change the way the gate works.

Oh and as for the other thing. the chevrons start locking on the offworld gate AFTER the onworld gate has done dialing out.

Oh and when the earth gate gets an incomming wormhole it dials its own address. Not the offworld gates.

Trust me on this!

 

[shu_hunter]

You're assuming that the earth gate needs its on energy to be dialed to. which doesn't make sense. A gate can be dialed to without a proper power source, or the SGC wouldn't send malps through to see if there was a DHD.* It makes more sense that the recieving gate would somehow draw power from the dialing gate.
And what do you mean by "Oh and when the earth gate gets an incomming wormhole it dials its own address. Not the offworld gates"? It doesn't make any sense. I (think) I get what you're saying, but it just does NOT make sense. the Earth gate is recieving a wormhole so it's like "I'll dial myself now!" ?!!
"the chevrons start locking on the offworld gate AFTER the onworld gate has done dialing out." well, obviously, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
*I know the MALP has other functions, like checking the atmosphere and such, but i'm pretty sure its main function is to locate a dhd.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[sg14ever]

Ok the malp is used for many things. One is to make sure you have the dhd on the offworld gate.

Now here is how it works.

The dialing out gate needs a power source to dial out.
It is well and true that the offworld does not need a power source to be dialed into. You can tell because in Prisoners that gate had nothing to power it. What I am saying is that because of the change to the gate from earth power it is acting weird like that. There are other problems in not using the power the gate was ment to be used with. (the DHD)

 

[PTeppic]

Just to confuse the situation, we also have time sliced photography to deal with. Things must be shown sequentially on TV, but may be slightly closer or further apart in "real" time, than they are shown.

 

[Sphinx]

Something which always plays on my mind which I'm sure has been answered before but bear with me it's the first time I've ventured into the technical side of things

When a destination is dialled, from a site that has a DHD for the sake of argument, it appears that each chevron lights up at the destination end as they are pressed on the DHD. If this is the case, it must be feasible that multiple gates at different locations light up certain chevrons upto a certain point, yet we never get to see the occasional chevron light up at either the SGC or other visited planets.

Are there any explanations for this side of things ?

 

[PTeppic]

Very true -and this is VERY unlikely.
It is like saying every phone in London rings when I dial the London prefix, with c. 9/10 of the remaining numbers stopping dialling each time with each further digit...

Since this is so unlikely, it means that all the chevrons that lock do so AFTER the address is completed at the source. There must be some sort of sequence in the protocol, such as:

Source: seven glyphs dialled, and "button" pressed
Source: the gate finds whether a destination exists at the address dialled
Source: the protocol checks whether the other gate is "free"
Source: if it is, the point-of-origin chevron locks and at the same time -
Destination: the seven chevrons start locking
Source: wormhole engages
Desintation: last chevron locks and wormhole engages

 

[Sphinx]

Originally posted by PTeppic
It is like saying every phone in London rings when I dial the London prefix, with c. 9/10 of the remaining numbers stopping dialling each time with each further digit...

Hmm, I see your point but a telephone exchange or telephone switch doesn't quite work that way ... say you start dialing a telephone number that doesn't exist - it doesn't wait until you've finished dialling before it verifies the address, it verifies it as you go along - if you input a digit that doesn't route it fails at the point.

I guess as we never see a gate address fail until the seventh symbol is input it makes sense that your theory is correct. Why the destination gate doesn't lock all chevrons at the same time must be the way they are built.

In your protocol what would happen if the destination gate started dialling out prior to the completion of the chevron activations. I presume the destination would overide and the source would get "busy". In your protocol the wormhole engages at the source prior to the chevrons locking at the destination. I think in a few episodes it has been demonstrated that this isn't the case.

Thanks for answering so quickly btw.

 

[PTeppic]

Phone system - the exchange probably works in two ways anyway: it knows a valid prefix, and then transfers the call to the destination prefix exchange, and IT can work out if the call is valid, perhaps number by number

Gate system - until all 6 destination glyphs are entered, it can't work out that they don't intersect. IF they were SO far out, that they never intersected, it is POSSIBLE at the third or fourth glyph to bomb-out. Maybe just the protocol waits until the seventh to "go".


Dialling protocol - we have two problems:
a) we don't see both ends of the gate in "real time" on screen at once, so we can't QUITE be sure of the sequence, or what is "after" something else
b) we can be moderately sure that neither gate can go back in time, so things can only happen at the destination after the source.
c) But, things can happen VERY FAST and between the gates almost simultaneously
d) Perhaps the biggest problem: the relatively snail-like speed of the locking chevrons at the destination

So, my question, extrapolating from my previous, does the destination start locking its chevrons, or even answering "sorry I am busy" until the bog red button is pressed, or before that? And once a DHD has started dialling, presumably it disengages all the glyphs if the sequence isn't finished within a few tens of seconds?

Or, does one end of the wormhole (source) engage before the destination has even finished locking the chevrons? I would say NOT, since a fast enough dialled out wormhole should be able to block the incoming...

 

[Sphinx]

Fair points.

Based on what we know and the assumptions we've made we should try and come up with a "best guess" protocol for the gate / dhd dialling mechanism.

Here's my attempt. Feel free to add / change any of the points.

1. At source user enters the 7 chevrons and "submit" either via manual movement of the gate and a power source (or computer controlled at the SGC) or via a Dial Home Device (DHD). It can be assumed that a delay in entering the co-ordinates from either method would induce an auto-reset facility in the gate system, ensuring a gate could not be locked out for any considerable length of time.

2. The Gate Network checks the accuracy of the gate co-ordinates (based on spacial planetary drift) to another gate.

3. If destination gate detected, a check of the event horizon is verified to ensure correct connection as well as availability of gate (is it busy ?).

4. Destination gate lights each chevron in turn, during which an outgoing wormhole from the destination site could still be established if entered before final chevron lit.

5. Destination gate lights final chevron (top position) and sends signal back to Source gate to establish connection.

6. Source gate activates (ka-whoosh) and sends signal to destination gate to activate.

7. Destination gate receives confirmation and activates (ka-whoosh).

8. After a designated time of inactivity of gate travel (exact time seems to vary) the source gate closes. The source can also terminate the connection.

9. Termination of the wormhole at source sends signal to destination to also terminate.


Have I missed anything out do you think ?

 

[PTeppic]

The general sequence seems fine, but suffers from the same problem my suggestion did...

> the delay between the seventh chevron locking at the source gate and the source end of the wormhole establishing.

As far as I can recall, these two events are barely a second apart, yet both suggested sequences pretty much expect all the destination chevrons to lock in that time (and perhaps a glimmer of protocol, but I think we can assume there IS time for that )

Oh yeah - I recall, last week I watched an episode and timed an INCOMING wormhole at the SGC.

I am fairly sure it took 30 seconds from the first siren to the wormhole engaging and going woosh.... so how does that fit into the above protocol

 

[Tiberius]

Question:

How does the Chappa'ai know to start engaging the glyphs before the wormhole gets there? How to the two gates communicate?

 

[PTeppic]

I think we can assume that whilst the wormhole provides a matter transportation conduit (although actually it is just energy, since the gate itself seems to do the disintegration and reintegration), there is some sort of inter-gate communication beforehand to allow the protocol to work. Clearly not in our dimension, or not using electromagnetic means, of course.

 

[Tiberius]

I assume this precontact method is similar to the Goa'uld communications device that sends messages instantaneously?

 

[digi_rage1]

Well guys this is an idea.

As you know the gate network works on the Pinpoint Priniciple, which is 'any point in space is defined by 6 points', which join up in the center. Now it requires two points to form one line in Space. So we can assume that after one line is defined all gates in that line are activated, as more Glyphs are entered the Stargate that is trying to be dialed will eventually end up being the only one that lines up with all the line in space.

Also I have seen the gate spin in an episode (Children of the Gods) before an incoming wormhole is established. I also very clearly remember the gate opening without warning, and no inner ring spinning.

Finally in theory no Glyphs are needed to dial another gate. The real wormhole physics, states that creating a stable worming requires an awful lot of negative energy. It also states that if two points in space, create the same amount of negative energy in every respect, then the wormhole would open between those two points. So therefore all that would be needed is to tell the incoming gate to create the same amount of negative energy.

 

[PTeppic]

I don't think we can say that "all gates in that line are activated". That would be tying up dozens, if not hundreds of gates into a dialling protocol, when they are not needed, even if only for part of the dialling sequence. It would be like tying up all the phones starting with 7, when starting to dial 734567. And, what would it do if one or more of them were already engaged?

Incoming wormholes, spinning - don't they only do that if dialled without a DHD, i.e. from Earth? or the other way round? Its probably just a production error...

As for the wormholes themselves. Yup - no reason why we couldn't have natural wormholes between gates. See also S5 episode "48 hours" - sort of.