What determines the Alpha Gate?

[shu_hunter]

**Ã… and |O represent the points of origin of the two earth stargates.

ok, i'm going to rush through seasons 1-4 so anyone who hears about sopmething they haven't already seen, too bad for them.
The Beta Gate was discovered in Antarctica when the wormhole re-routed because of an energy blast on the outgoing planet.
It was put into storage at Area 51, unless anyone can correct me.
Maybourne used it to steal alien technology, yada yada yada.
It was brought to the SGC for safekeeping.
SG-1 teleported the gate into Thor's ship to escape from the replicators, and it crashed into the Atlantic(Pacific?) Ocean and was picked up by the Russians.
They used it until a wormhole wouldn't uningage and SG-1 was sent to fix it.
Russians promised not to use their gate if the US shared any technology advance through the stargate with them.

So.. Ã… was at the sgc and |O was in antarctica until |O was discovered and brought to Area 51 and then to the SGC. Ã… crashed into the ocean and was picked up by russians, and the SGC adopted |O.

*rest your eyes here*

My question is, what determines the Alpha Stargate (the one that recieves any incoming wormholes)? Ã… got them until it crashed, and then |O got them. I heard it had something to do with the DHD. Can anyone be a little more specific? I'd appreciate it.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[PTeppic]

To be honest, I think it is just convenient plot device. After all, the |O gate has been sitting with a DHD for unknown decades, and can still receive incoming. So perhaps would have done whilst Ã… was buried in Giza... which would make IT the alpha gate.

I am not sure they have done ANYTHING to justify how their gate always gets the incoming, since both are technically valid. Maybe it is just the amount of power being fed to it? Which might sort of make your DHD idea work.

 

[leprykawn]

I have a question about the antartic gate. This is a bit of a SPOILER for anyone who hasn't been seriously following the series from day one up to season 5, but here I go anyway:

When Sam and Jack were dropped off in Antartica (out of |O), Sam found a DHD buried in ice. Can't they dig that DHD out and bring it to the SGC for reverse-engineering; or did Maybourne already do that?

If they understood how the DHD worked maybe they'd have a better understanding of StarGate Technology.

 

[shu_hunter]

Maybourne must've already done it because in "Touchstone", the alien-technology-theives escape through the beta stargate by dialing a DHD and we know the one in Giza is still owned by the russians. I dont think maybourne had anything to do with the russians at that point.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[leprykawn]

Oh yeah ; I forgot about that DHD in TouchStone. Cool.

 

[Thor_of_Othalla]

Current situation:
Ã… gate is at the Russian SGC
Ã… DHD was blown up in "48 Hours"
|O gate is being used at the SGC
|O DHD is probly at Area 51 being pulled apart piece by piece, otherwise they would have used it in "48 Hours"

Other than a plot device, the only way I can think that the SGC Stargate always seems to have priority is that when Sam was developing the dialling protocols to interface with the Stargate, she maybe inadvertently developed a protocol that activated some sort of priority function on the Stargate.

Although if this is true, then the Russians' threat in 48 Hours to keep their Stargate active and therefore render the SGC's useless, would basically just be a load of hot air.

I think plot device is really the only way to explain it.

 

[shu_hunter]

You're probably right, Thor, except you said the |O DHD was blown up in 48 Hours; I thought the russians had the DHD the Germans got from the dig at Giza. I'm not sure where I heard that, but I know I did. Or not. Never mind. If I'm wrong, sue me.

but you'd better have a lot of proof.

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[Tabitha]

Hey there folks

I'd like to add a few thoughts to this thread. In 48hrs the secondary storyline has Major Davis and Daniel bargaining with the Russians for the use of their DHD (the Giza one) to save Teal'c, right?

There is a major continuity problem here (as mentioned in your previous posts), as the antartic DHD (the one used by Maybourne's boys and girls in Touchstone) was already in the possession of the Americans. There has been some speculation in another thread that this was perhaps some ploy by the american powers-that-be to get the Russian DHD, and thus cripple (or seriously hinder) any further use of the Russian Stargate.
It is unlikely however that Daniel would so desperately plunge into this kind of bargaining if he knew that it was unnneccessary, which suggests that there is merely a continuity problem.
I find it unlikely that your idea of the antartic dhd being pulled apart in Area 51 is the case though - surely it would be quicker to re-assemble that and get it to Cheyenne Mountain, than fly to RUssia and negotiate with them. Remember that pulling it apart might not have been necessary anyway - Jack produced detailed plans of how it worked when he had the knowledge of the ancients in "The Fifth Race".

It is mentioned in both Touchstone, and in Watergate that the gate with the DHD attached has priority. Therefore, using a gate with a connected DHD outside of the SGC needs to be done with care, or travellers will end up in the wrong place on earth. I think the Russian scientist lady mentions that knowing the timing of SGC stargate activity is quite important in this respect. Basically what I am saying is that, the SGC cannot make sure that its gate has priority, but on the occasions that the other gate has been used, both Maybourne and the Russians wanted to keep it secret, so they timed it so there would be no mix ups.

As for the original question :wink2: , it is the DHD that determines the alpha stargate. We have only ever had one stargate hooked up to a DHD at a time on Earth, having a DHD hooked up will make that Stargate the primary one.

However, I have no idea what would happen if two stargates on a planet were both hooked up to DHD's.
Posssible Answer:
* The wormhole conforms to my (limited :wink2: ) understanding of Physics and activates the gate that is "closer" to it - i.e. the one that will require the smallest amount of energy to activate in the case that there is no other over-riding factor (like the gate being buried)


It is established that to dial a stargate on earth you always use the same co-ordinates, yes? I am a little confused then about the point of origin symbol - is it usually included in a planet's stargate address? If so, then how do you explain the different point-of-origin symbols on the two earth stargtes?
I started out by trying to explain this issue to you folks, and now realise that I have just dredged up more questions than I can answer :eek7:

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Tabitha
It is established that to dial a stargate on earth you always use the same co-ordinates, yes? I am a little confused then about the point of origin symbol - is it usually included in a planet's stargate address? If so, then how do you explain the different point-of-origin symbols on the two earth stargtes?
I started out by trying to explain this issue to you folks, and now realise that I have just dredged up more questions than I can answer :eek7:

Could be that the POOG is merely symbolic... it is not actually needed in the sequence, since the gate must know where it is (see one of my other posts somewhere) and it may have moved. Therefore, the change in glyph is a) just to remind the Goa'uld or Jaffa that this is a second gate, and the first was lost due to carelessness or whatever, OR b) a plot device

 

[leprykawn]

Originally posted by Tabitha
Jack produced detailed plans of how it worked when he had the knowledge of the ancients in "The Fifth Race".

HE DID??!!??! I can't remember that. Oh well. Is anyone studying that data that Jack produced, I wonder?

 

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by leprykawn


HE DID??!!??! I can't remember that. Oh well. Is anyone studying that data that Jack produced, I wonder?

It was a subplot - Carter and a team were stuck on a planet that was getting extremely hot (second sun was rising), and they DHD wasn't working properly.

Jack drew very detailed plans of the DHD, they sent it through the Gate to Carter (who was amazed!) - and she fixed the DHD from his plans. I guess they must have people working on them? It's the kind of thing Carter would have for bedtime reading :wink2:

 

[PTeppic]

And they definitely brought the plans home with them, because Sam half waves them when asking who produced them. They were a little scrumpled though!

a) presumably the boffins had enough time to copy them before they were sent through, just in case...

b) close examination on large-screen monitor/TV with a DVD shows the plans are "real" with detailed breakdowns, and even step-by-step instructions...

 

[shu_hunter]

I have a picture of the DHD specs, if anyone wants it.. I got it from www.stargatesg-1.com somewhere, but it's hard to access; that's why I'm not posting it right away: somebody has to want it before I'll go look for it. Anyway, about the opint of origin symbol: I think the goa'uld brought the second stargate to earth just so they could bring slaves to various planets to worship them etc. and |O doesn't correspond with earth. It's been semi-proven that when a stargate gets near enough a star or planet, the point of origin re-orients to that part of space. I get that theory from "Within the Serpent's Grasp" or "The Serpent's Lair", I can't remember which, when at the end Appophis and Klorel escape from their blowing-up motherships through a gate they brought with them.
Tabitha has a very good point about the two DHDs on Earth. Maybourne used the |O DHD and stargate to steal alien technology before they were caught by SG-1, and the Ã… stargate was in the SGC while the russians had the Ã… DHD. when the rusians got the Ã… stargate and used it with their Ã… DHD, the SGC was already in possession of the |O gate, so what happened to the |O DHD? Wouldn't the SGC have that too? That's a damn good question!

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by shu_hunter
Anyway, about the opint of origin symbol: I think the goa'uld brought the second stargate to earth just so they could bring slaves to various planets to worship them etc. and |O doesn't correspond with earth. It's been semi-proven that when a stargate gets near enough a star or planet, the point of origin re-orients to that part of space.
~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

yep - that makes total sense. *nods wisely*

cheers

 

[PTeppic]

It also ties in with the plot that we know... the Goa'uld brought in a second gate when the first was "lost". It must have come from somewhere, which already had a POOG. They were just too lazy (or technically incapable) to change it... it still "meant" Earth, due to the "nearest actual point of origin" workings of the gate system.


Erm, actually, just thinking:

in line with some of my other ramblings in "Technical", about the workings of the gate system, to enable gates to be able to work when moved to a new location, and to allow the addition of the new gates (e.g. Tollana), the actual point of origin is irrelevant, apart from the fact that it is at a point in physical space that can be incomingly addressed. Ah, answering myself: from Grasp/Lair, when Daniel/Sam conclude "the point of origin is no longer valid", what it actually means is that the gate is no longer at an addressable position in the sphere of space. Specifically as a incoming point for wormholes, but this ALSO means in terms of outgoing ones, the POO is no longer valid.

It ALL makes SENSE now... due to the relative position of the forty or so constellations in space, only so many physical places in space can be addressed as a 3-D glyph sequence. And most of those already have "static" gates in place on planet. It won't take a rocket scientist (actually, pretty much that WOULD be the purpose of a rocket scientist!! :blush: ) to determine the addressable places in space, find which don't currently have gates and realise that a mobile gate could be placed there (e.g. Klorel's ha'tak). When it moves, it is no longer able to be dialled, either in or out, since we can assume as a fail safe each gate can detect where is in space, and can work out it cannot be dialled into, and hence won't allow out-going wormholes from such a position. Or perhaps the physics won't allow it?

Which means this thread has just drifted away from the A/O gates, and into how they work. But that can't be a bad thing...

 

[Tabitha]

Pteppic - thanks to you I now understand the workings of the stargate (maybe those years of physics weren't wasted after all - i was beginning to worry!). What you said about the stargate being able to sense its position would make perfect sense in the context of such an advanced piece of equipment. And would handily explain the concept of moving gates around to be used in different places (solar systems!).

One thought the last few posts have brought up - the Goa'uld supposedly brought the antartic gate to earth after the original one at giza was buried? Is this right? But then how come the antartic gate was in the antartic - even within the last ten thousand years the Arctic hasn't been the most hospitable place to live, so it makes more sense that the artic gate was the original gate placed there by the builders and the giza gate was one brought by the GOa'uld for slave transports etc...

This assumption would raise a problem though - didn't Daniel Jackson in the movie figure out how to dial out successfully by corresponding the gate symbols to constellations?
This would surely have been impossible if the giza gate was the second gate.....


I haven't watched the movie in a while, so please feel free to correct me peeps

 

[PTeppic]

Your assumption is still valid... all Daniel did was work out the POOG for Earth. Though how come the best brains in the military didn't (or even didn't simply try all 33 other glyphs in turn!) I don't know.

Since the glyphs were on the Giza coverstone, it wouldn't matter whether it was first or second. It is strongly suggested in a number of places, not least the film, that the Giza gate was first.

As for why Antarctica - who knows. Plot device for somewhere obscure that would not have been found. I can't imagine the Goa'uld (up to even turn of the 20th century) being anything other than their arrogant selves and therefore would NOT have hidden it away on some remote freezing island away from civilisation.

Suggestion: it was moved by someone else (e.g. Asgard) to the Antarctic, after being located somewhere else more useful by the Goa'uld. Who for some reason either didn't or couldn't follow-up an investigation into the loss of the gate. Perhaps a build up of ice effectively provided a cover-stone preventing dial-in until recently?

 

[shu_hunter]

Maybe the goa'uld put the second stargate in antarctica because it was the most out-of-the-way place to put it? I think that after the rebellion on earth, all the Goa'uld gathered up a sufficient number of slaves, jaffa, etc. and moved to their respected planets. They just didn't need earth anymore, so they left it alone until we started posing a "threat".

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[shu_hunter]

oh, and just to answer my original question "what determines the Alpha Gate", in "48 Hours", they were saying how since the russians had a DHD they could make their gate the dominant gate on earth. BUT.... what if there are two stargates with a DHD in the same area corresponding to the 6 glyphs?
About the DHD-connected-gate-being-the-dominant-gate rule, the russians must have some way of disconnecting the DHD from the stargate. or does it simply mean they took it far enough away so it could'nt communicate with the gate or transmit energy?

~Shu Hunter
:upto: stargate fan{atic}

 

[PTeppic]

There must be SOME distance requirement, otherwise those NID guys at Area 51 would be able to dial up the SGC gate...