What is the Point of Origin for?

[Tiberius]

When dialing a Chappa'ai, why must the point of origin be dialed?

 

[Rowan]

PoO

Okay... let me see if I can do this without making a mess out of it with no sleep.

You have 7 glyphs. 6 of them are used to pinpoint the 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' axis in glactic space of the location you want to Gate to. the 7th glyph - the Point of Origin - tells the 'system' where in the Galaxy the signal originates from. IE: You can't go *to* somewhere without having come *from* somewhere. You need to a beginning and end point for each end of the wormhole to attach to to give you a straight line route - a straight line being the shortest distance between two points. Since it's a wormhole, using the oncepts of quantum physics, the wormhole 'draws' these two points together so matter can moved.

Make any sense?

Rowan

 

[PTeppic]

it has also been discussed elsewhere, extensively, that there is no actual reason for needing a POO. The source gate knows where it is within the gate network, and can supply that information during any dialling protocol.

The POO is mostly just a plot-point: the reason why the USAF had been unable to get the gate to work (yeah right, only 39 to choose from), but Daniel was able to crack it. And then on the return trip, the key to being able to get back at all.

 

[System Lord Gypsy]

Despite all arguments against a point of origin being needed I think Daniel best described it in the movie with his 6 pts of a cube to find the planet you want and the 7th {POO} to connect the wormhole at your end.

Gypsy

 

[Rowan]

7 glyphs

Exactly, BC... it meets the requirements for discribing a point in 3 dimensional space yet allows for those tantilating little bits of quantum math that drive me crazy.

I can follow the theory, but don't have the math to prove it. <sigh>

Row

 

[Tiberius]

Thanx to everyone.

 

[Rowan]

PoO

Da nada. It was fun. :blush:

Row

 

[PTeppic]

But you can absolutely describe a point in 3-D space using 3 references for the intersection...

 

[System Lord Gypsy]

When you get past the cube thing ya lose me. Was never any good at maths.

Gypsy

 

[Rowan]

PoO

Originally posted by PTeppic
But you can absolutely describe a point in 3-D space using 3 references for the intersection...

I agree completely. But we're doing more than discribing one point. We're setting up the transit co-ordinates from point 'a' to point 'b'. It's like driving: if you don't know where you're starting from, how do you know which is the road to take to get there?

For any trip you have to have a start and end.

Row

 

[PTeppic]

But unlike a road scenario, where you can be anywhere on any road, in the gate network, you are dialling from a Stargate. It can (and we have suggested in other threads it does) determine its own position in space using astronomy. It can therefore "know" where it is, and so doesn't need to be fed its own position as a POO.

 

[Rowan]

Originally posted by PTeppic
But unlike a road scenario, where you can be anywhere on any road, in the gate network, you are dialling from a Stargate. It can (and we have suggested in other threads it does) determine its own position in space using astronomy. It can therefore "know" where it is, and so doesn't need to be fed its own position as a POO.

Okay. *How* does it determine it's own position? Math and/or physics to back it up please. [Just becasue it was 'suggested' and 'decided' it does on a thead here doesn't mean it will stand up to Hawking or others. I don't need the formula - probably couldn't follow it anyway - but can you give me an 'A' to 'B' to 'C' logic line?

Row <too much the curious cat for her own good...

 

[shazstar]

Ah ah ah ha!

I have got a theory for this....please pick it pieces!

Ok....back to basics. To determine a position in space......you need and x, y and a z coordinate determined by the first 6 chevrons. We know that. What is often dismissed in this postulation of galactic positioning is the 4TH DIMENSION. Time. To find an event in space 4 coordinates are needed. x, y and z, and t for time.


What if the POO is actually the chevron for determining not only the additional region.....(yada yada said before) but also the t coordinate..???? The event in space? Remember that the universe is expanding, so the deeper we look into the centre of the universe essentially the further we are looking back in time........just like watching from the back of the car window as you drive away from a house, the further you go the dimmer, or smaller it is.

The rate at which the universe is expanding, is proportional to the rate at which objects in space are receeding meaning the new positioning and the t coordinate has to be re-calculated (and we saw this in COTG)

What I am trying to put to you is that when a wormhole is being dialled it uses the first 6 chevrons to linearly pinpoint a position, so essentially an A coordinate, than a B coordinate and then the C coordinate point determine a region of space and the t determines the time and thus the position. This explains why, after thousands of years of stellar drift, new t coordinates must be calculated using Hubbles theory for the rate of expansion.

Try drawing it on a ballon. Start off with it blown up a tiny bit and draw 6 lines (yes they will curve on the balloon but disregard the curve) until they come together at the top of the ballon. When you blow it up further, the lines, if continued, will still get to the ultimate position, BUT, the event takes longer to occur. This represents the problem with steller drift and the t coordiante. Although the dhd can compensate for this, the SGC computers had to be "maguyvered" to do so.

That is a basic rundown...unfortunetly I am off to work now, so I will think up some more evidence for my theory while there and log back on tonight.

 

[shazstar]

when you do the balloon thing, draw the lines to the top of the balloon. as you blow it up although the lines still meet at the top, ultimately it takes a longer distance and a longer time to get there from the base of the balloon.

I'm not very good at analogies with balloons and etc stuff. Pteppic your way better at the maths and etc for this than me, what do you think is a better way of showing this idea?

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by shazstar
This explains why, after thousands of years of stellar drift, new t coordinates must be calculated using Hubbles theory for the rate of expansion.

But as a result of the expansion, the xyz (or ABC) positions have also changed. And the canon evidence does explicitly state it is the "point of origin". Also since the Earth POO doesn't change, but the other glyphs in the sequence do change, it IS the xyz points which change.

Sorry, but I think I will have to challenge your "t" theory.

 

[shazstar]

hey challenge it all you like it was a theory I dreamed up in a physics lesson...most of its probably completly wrong.

yes...the x y and z coordiantes do change but in a linear axis. If we assume that the big bang theory is correct then analysing the motion of only the expanding universe, without reference to any outside influences that could affect the coordinates of a starstem, (*eg a supanova) it must be correct that a coordinate for a point in the universe can only move in the one dimension.

However, that is without considering factors such as supanova, or orbits or planetary shifts etc etc.

 

[PTeppic]

I'm being excessively thick here - you are saying that any point can only move in one dimension. But ANY point can move in x, y and z in any, equal, different or no amounts, independently. And it can be due to expansion, rotation, orbit, gravity, collision or anything else, e.g. black hole or supenovae.

 

[shazstar]

no bad choice of words by me...sorry.

IF, and only IF, we are considering the Big Bang as the correct theory for the beginning of the universe, then we must also consider it as the origin for the MOTION of all matter. Remembering Newton's 1st Law, (an object will remain at rest in uniform motion until an unbalanced force acts upon it), and also the evidence for an expanding universe is it not true that the big bang resulted in an event which (for lack of a better word) 'blasted' matter in all directions? And matter, in whatever form it takes (uniform particles, planets, star systems), continued and CONTINUES in that direction in constant velocity until an unbalanced force acts upon it. Now, increasing the scale of what we consider 'matter' or the formations, use an example like a galaxy, OR a region/point in space. Any matter or region of matter from our relative perspective (that is, from Earth) is receeding from us. This does not make Earth the centre of the universe, only the centre of a galaxy which is receeding itself. So, stellar drift then is the change in distance between galaxies as they receede. (in a nutshell!). In which case, compensating for stellar drift is a case of external calculations using ratios for the distance, which, without outside unbalaced forces, would continue on a linear path in four dimensional motion. (x,y,z and t). x,y, and z are 3 dimensional calculations to find the path traced out by a moving point, (which in theory, would be a locus.), while t is for the event coordinate of the moving point at the time for which the calculation is made. :errrr: :erm: :eek4:
(sorry if that last statement made no sense at all and confused everybody! I know what I am trying to say its just hard to say it in words...)
HOWEVER, it is only this simple if the origin of the big bang, region, area, dimension whatever, IS KNOWN. Which leads me to believe that the race that built the stargates DID know such a region, and were able to easily incorporate a compensation device or program into the DHD's of the gates, to allow for the changing distances between expanding points.

Originally posted by Pteppic
I'm being excessively thick here

Nope you're not...it ws a bad choice of words by me, and remember this is only an idea thought out by a student with nothing else better to do with her time. So I love it when anyone questions my theories, or ideas, but I also love defending them to the best of my abilities!

 

[shazstar]

I think I went off on a tangent before with the 't' and the point of origin. Essentially, when I talk about a 't' coordinate, I am referring to the fourth dimension of Space, time, and the 't' is just the variable. I actually agree with Pteppic and Rowan in the POO being just a plot point for the beginning or origin of the wormhole. But I believe the theory for how the POO can determine its own position has something to do with time being the fourth dimension. As Rowan said, the first 6 are to determine the x, y and the z, and the POO I think is the equivalent of the 't', it determines the event of the wormhole and the simulataneous connection for the dialled gate.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by shazstar
Which leads me to believe that the race that built the stargates DID know such a region, and were able to easily incorporate a compensation device or program into the DHD's of the gates, to allow for the changing distances between expanding points.

The only things required for compensation to work are the gates to be able to calculate where in space they are (in 3D), relative to the "glyph" points - and therefore can re-determine which set of six glyphs would apply to them.

It is therefore entirely feasible, and coming to a fan-fic near you at some point, that over a set period of long time, a planet will have a fixed glyph address, a period of inability to use the gate totally, and then a new glyph address, potentially with none of the same glyphs as the previous one. And the previous one will not work at all.

Although your idea may work, it does not appear needed, to still have a theory which appears to cover all the canon "facts" about the gate and addressing methods.

[Any errors in the above theory are due to a rather nice Zinfandel... ]