Is there life in fantasy after Tolkien?

[Brian G Turner]

Has Tolkien so shaped the world of fantasy literature, that there is little than any modern fantasy writer is willing to say or do that Tolkien didn;t already cover?

Has he so effectively defined the mould for the fantasy genre that, after Tolkien, there is nothing left but Tolkien's literary shadows?

A discussion starter...

 

[Esioul]

I think writers these days try to get away from Tolkein, there is so much fat fantasy around which attempts to copy him to some extent, or at least doesn't bother to make anything new up. Personally, I'm interested in the genre because I like reading interesting and weird things, and reading the same things over and over again just isn't interesting or weird enough for me.

 

[The Master™]

Okay, I'll admit that Tolkein was a pioneer in Fantasy writing... And The Hobbit and Lord of the Ring and Silmarillion and the rest cover some weighty subjects and events...

But then, Tolkein did produce a whole world with history...

He included characters and creatures that have appeared in other works since...

BUT... I have to say that there are a number of writers today who may have used the influence of Tolkein in their works, but who have produced epics of their own... With things undreamt of in Tolkeins work...

For example (and I don't apologise for using him again) Raymond E Feist... The Riftwar Saga, The Serpent War Saga... These have a great deal that doesn't appear in Tolkein's epics... Invasion from other worlds... A trans-dimensional corridor... God's Avatars... The Halls of the Gods... The Valheru...

So, the answer is YES, there is life in fantasy after Tolkein... But he gave fantasy writing a bloody good start!!!

 

[fallenstar]

Gernerally Tolkien had a plot of good against evil, which is so common that it's not even an invention of his. But he did create a world that is real just like our own, which most fantasy writers today cannot match. The problem is that their worlds is not 'alive' in terms of the different places and the history of that land.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Tolkien effectively kicked off fantasy as a genre. He also limited its progress horribly. Writers like ER Eddisson brought in a more philosophically deep approach that was ignored in favour of copying Tolkien's archetypal good and evil plot. The robust heroics of Robert E Howard gave way to eternal quests and a slew of poncy elves, charming dwarves, canny dragons and droll trolls. Mervyn Peake's gothic vision and far superior prose has been woefully marginalised.

I love the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the entertainment and wonder it has given me over the years. However, I do not really care for the ways it has shaped and limited fantastic fiction.

It's the writers who rub against the grain of cozy, 'great battle and then back to the hole-in-the-ground' fantasy that excite me - M John Harisson, Michael Moorock, and more recently, Jeff VanderMeer, China Mieville and Jeff Ford. I'd say some of the greatest fantasy writers never even consciously worked or work in the genre - such as Franz Kafka, Italo Calvino, Umberto Eco, Gabriel Marquez and more, that the modern fantasy aspirant would do well to study instead.

Having said all this, I will repeat I enjoy Tolkien's works immensely. But they fostered a generic ethos that is far too predictable to really be fantasy in the purest sense. Fantasy should be a stretching of the boundaries of imagination , perhaps to cast light on the real world - not a comfy retreat from reality, or at least, not just that.

 

[littlemissattitude]

I would also like to mention that the whole subgenre of urban fantasy proves that there is life in fantasy after Tolkien. While urban fantasy sometimes takes inspiration from the same kinds of mythological and folkloric roots that Tolkienesque fantasy does, it then proceeds to turn these influences on their head and feed them straight into what we think of as the real, modern world. What results is something often completely "other" in relation to the literature of Tolkien and his followers.

For a sample, I would suggest "Last Call" by Tim Powers. You have some heavily mythical references in that book, and even a quest of sorts, but I don't think you would mistake it for anything Tolkien ever wrote.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I'd like to add that there certainly was fantasy before Tolkien - though it was usually for children, Lewis Caroll's books or the Oz series by L Frank Baum. But yes, Tolkien shaped the genre as it is today.

 

[Sirathiel]

Yes, Tolkien was one of the first and he has shaped the genre. Unfortunately there are writers out there who take him not as an inspiring example, but as an example to be copied and recycled.

I'm glad to see that there is a relatively large number of authors out there who create their own worlds and races and stories. I'd like to mention Tad Williams in this regard. His Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is IMHO a wonderul work of fantasy. It has its similarities to Tolkien because it is, too, a world of it's own. But that is where the similarities end. Williams has populated his world with humans of all kinds, trolls and Sithi. The conflict he describes is not only one of good vs. evil, but one that contains also shades of grey.

Another example would be David Eddings. Many don't like his works, but at least their his and his alone. Because his worlds do not know elfs and dwarves. He creates his own magical systems. He's maybe not as brilliant as Tolkien, but at least he's original.

So, yes, there's a life in fantasy after Tolkien, because Tolkien was but the beginning of fantasy.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Eddings orginal? Well he started writing fantasy in the mid 80s, I think. Perhaps his quest/journey structuring and farmboy-to-chosen one motifs were relatively new then, I will give you that. But he rapidly became very repititive within his own body of work. I won't deny that his books gave me many hours of entertainment but I would debate his orginality. Still, he did start out with a fresher appraoch than, say, Terry 'Shannara' Brooks.

 

[Sirathiel]

You're right, knivesout, that Eddings has been lacking new ideas for a while. But if he hadn't become repetitive of his own ideas... oh well, what I wanted to say is, that he didn't copy Tolkien, but had ideas of his own, original ideas. It's just sad that he abused these ideas and became repetitive of himself.

 

[polymorphikos]

I think he was quite plagaristic, he just didn't take himself seriously (I only read the Belgariad, Tamuli and the one before the Tamuli I can never remember the name of, so I can't speak fully, mind). He knew he was retreading the same ground, but he did it with a tongue in cheek and some great characters and blatant satire of numerous fantasy conventions, so he can be forgiven.

 

[Shoegaze99]

I love the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the entertainment and wonder it has given me over the years. However, I do not really care for the ways it has shaped and limited fantastic fiction.

Which is really a failing of the Terry Brooks, David Eddings and Dennis McKiernans of the world than a failing of The Lord of the Rings.

There is no inherent reason why The Lord of the Rings should have limited the vision of modern fantasy authors, but copycatism exists in all art forms, from music to film to literature, causing, in some respects, Tolkien’s work to have done about as much harm as good. When a creation comes into being that is an archetype almost from the moment of its birth, much like The Lord of the Rings, many choose to play paint by numbers (Sword of Shannara, I’m looking at you). Whether it’s through a desire to capitalize on something that is popular or through a lack of creativity is irrelevant.

The blame, of course, lies not in the original work, but rather with those who chose to follow so closely to the formula the original work set in place.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The blame (if you can call it that, because why shouldn't people read and write the kind of books they enjoy?) lies with the readers who continue to demand books written in the same familiar vein, who spend the majority of their money (dollars are votes) on the same authors treading the same ground, and rarely dare to try something new by someone they haven't heard of before.

In fact, it is unlikely that most of us would have had a chance to enjoy read the E.R. Eddisons and the Mervyn Peakes if Tolkien's popularity back in the sixties hadn't encouraged publishers to re-issue some of these older works in the hopes of discovering the "next" Tolkien. Instead, the majority of fantasy readers decided they wanted something along the lines of a David Eddings or a Terry Brooks instead.

 

[Shoegaze99]

The blame (if you can call it that, because why shouldn't people read and write the kind of books they enjoy?) lies with the readers who continue to demand books written in the same familiar vein, who spend the majority of their money (dollars are votes) on the same authors treading the same ground

A far more fair (and realistic) assessment than mine.

 

[Leto]

I'd like to add that there certainly was fantasy before Tolkien - though it was usually for children, Lewis Caroll's books or the Oz series by L Frank Baum. But yes, Tolkien shaped the genre as it is today.

Objection sir, Lord Dunsany, Arthur Machen, and Thomas Burnet Swann among others wrote adult fantasy years before j.R.R.Tolkien started it. Not counting Dante Alghieri, Ovid or Homer.

In modern days, yes there's a life in fantasy outside Tolkien type of world. Look at Jack Vance's Lyonness, Tim Powers (most of his novels are fantasy and not only urban as Last Call), Neil Gaiman's American gods and Neverwhere, Glen Cook (The Black company, the Garret serie), and in the parody type the Discworld of Terry Pratchett. And most of the non-english fantasy I've read (that's include Italo Calvino novels) are not based of Tolkien works : Pierre Pevel's Wieldstat saga, Pïerre Bordage too, or the elficologist Pierre Dubois (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/AS...83601/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_8_3/402-8002373-2156138) who along his encyclopediae wrote some excellent short stories as cynical reinterpretations of classical fairy tales.

BTW, J.K.Rowling is a great fantasy author and her Harry Potter universe is fairly original.

 

[LadyFel]

I just have to mention good old GRRM here...No elves, no one evil overlord, only one dwarf who won't live underground, incest, very little 'real' magic, and a host of main characters who might die at any moment, as opposed to Aragorn the Almighty and Gandalf the 'look, it was only a little Balrog, it wasn't that hard'

Again, having said that, I take my hat off to Tolkien, LOTR is a wonderful piece of work...I just don't enjoy the whole 'practically immortal hero' thing...Although even there, his characters will die one day, but of old age...As opposed to Drizzt Do'Urden...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

One thing I've been doing for the last couple of years is prowling the used bookstores for some of the older fantasy works that I a) never read, or b) never owned a copy of before. (I try not to buy anything used that is currently in print, because I DO want to support the authors I like.) As a result, I've been reunited, as you might say, with some old favorites. Some had already been around for a few years when I read them back in the late sixties or early seventies, some were newly published.

And I have to agree that there were a lot of really excellent and original fantasies written before Tolkien, or at the same time that Tolkien was writing LOTR, or during the period after LOTR was published but while it was still sort of a cult classic known and loved by the few. Books written in the English language I might add.

But I will also say that there has been an even greater quantity of really excellent fantasy written and published since (the published part being thanks to the popularity of the genre after Tolkien) -- you just have to dig through whole truckloads of the more ordinary stuff in order to find it.

I suppose I ought to sit down in front of my bookshelves and make a list of some of these to bolster my argument ...

 

[LadyFel]

Please do, I'd love to read some more unusual fantasy...

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

OK, then. To the great authors before Tolkien already mentioned (E. R. Eddison, Mervyn Peake, Lord Dunsany), I would also add T. H. White and Hope Mirlees.

First published in the same year as FOTR was "The Broken Sword," by Poul Anderson. Elves and heroes, but the setting is dark and chaotic, and the elves themselves very wild and elemental.

"The Blue Star" by Fletcher Pratt -- I don't know for sure when this was published -- it wasn't new when I read it back in the early seventies -- but it owes absolutely nothing to Tolkien or any of his sources of inspiration. It's mainly about politics and religion, with a bit of romance thrown in. Although one of the main characters is a witch, the story reads a lot like SF.

And here is my list of excellent and original fantasy written from the late 1960's on (some of this is YA):

Ursula K. LeGuin -- "The Earthsea Trilogy"

Patricia McKillip -- Anything by McKillip, but especially the Riddlemaster books, and her recent "Ombria in Shadow."

C. J. Cherryh -- "Fortress in the Eye of Time," "Fortress of Eagles," "Fortress of Owls," and "Fortress of Dragons." Also, "The Goblin Mirror"

Peter S. Beagle -- "The Last Unicorn," "A Fine and Private Place"

Joy Chant -- "Red Moon, Black Mountain"

Marion Campbell -- "The Dark Twin"

Monica Furlong -- "Wise Child"

Alan Garner -- "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen," and "The Moon of Gomrath. Also, "The Owl Service"

Meredith Ann Pierce -- "The Darkangel Trilogy," strictly speaking this would be science fantasy.

Gillian Bradshaw -- "Hawk of May, "The Kingdom of Summer," and "In Winter's Shadow."

Michael Scott Rohan -- "Anvil of Ice," "The Forge in the Forest," "Hammer of the Sun."

Tanith Lee -- Lee writes everything from YA to almost pornographic adult Dark Fantasy. Her best fantasy, in my opinion, falls halfway in between. Would especially recommend "Faces Under Water," "Saint Fire," and "A Bed of Earth: The Gravedigger's Tale."

Paul Hazel -- "Yearwood," and "Undersea."

Ann Downer -- "The Spellkey Trilogy."

Susan Cooper -- "The Dark is Rising," "Greenwitch," "The Grey King," and "Silver on the Tree."

Jack Vance -- "Lyonesse," "The Green Pearl," and "Madouc."

Tad Williams -- "The Dragonbone Chair," "Stone of Farewell," and "To Green Angel Tower."

Kate Elliott -- Crown of Stars series

Katharine Kerr -- Deverry series

 

[Shoegaze99]

Susan Cooper -- "The Dark is Rising," "Greenwitch," "The Grey King," and "Silver on the Tree."

"Over Sea, Under Stone" is the first in this series.

(This series is usually throw in the children's section of most bookstores, but with the rich language, crisp writing, layered characters and great twists on mythology, this is something any adult can enjoy, too. Probably more that kids/young adults)