Best Robert Heinlein novel?

[KESpires]

Exactly, but that means his dad was perfectly comfortable with not being able to influence the direction of the nation.

If I remember correctly Johnnie didn't do well enough on Math to be a pilot, or well enough almost anywhere else to be anything other than part of the MI.

Also, I haven't seen this brought up here. How does everyone feel about the old world public punishment system that Heinlein describes. People being flogged in public to discourage future law breakers...

In my area we have problem with small time drug use and a lot of small time crooks breaking into houses and whatnot. I don't live in a major city but the problem is getting a little out of hand considering the size of the town. Most people who get caught only get a year of probation or at worse five years of probation. A man had possession of a firearm by a convicted felon a few weeks back and didn't serve any prison time.

It makes me wonder if a few of these people got caned in public if a few of the others might decide "to hell with that," and go about their business.

 

[J-Sun]

Umm...I don't think there is, J-Sun: in fact I think you'd be pushed to find anything in the book that suggests this, and a very clear indication the other way.

Hm. Perhaps not, then. It's been several years since I read it and several years before that that I read it the first time, so maybe I inserted something that wasn't there. Still, it seems like there was something about that and it'd be very peculiar for Heinlein not to consider those willing to serve in any capacity, but unable to serve in combat roles, since Heinlein himself was essentially in that boat, albeit after he had gotten some service in. Ah well.

 

[iansales]

It's a popular argument by apologists for the book, but there's no direct reference to non-military service in the novel. There is, however, a direct reference to the fasces.

 

[Lillyanna]

It's a popular argument by apologists for the book, but there's no direct reference to non-military service in the novel. There is, however, a direct reference to the fasces.

I'll have to check when I get a minute, but what I remember is that you can do service without having to be in the military. I've been in the miliary as well as a "civil servant" (a civilian who works as an employee for the US government), and I would have made this distinction. Heinlein would have known about these two ways of serving a nation; I'll look for what gave me this impression later.

 

[Fried Egg]

I just read quite a contraversial claim in "Stranger in a strange land" when Jill tells Mike that "in nine out of ten rapes, the woman is partly to blame". Reflecting his own beliefs I wonder?

 

[iansales]

I'll have to check when I get a minute, but what I remember is that you can do service without having to be in the military.

Again, that's not what it says in the book.

When Rico signs up, and is given a physical, the doctor says to him:

"No offense. But military service is for ants ... And for what? A purely nominal political privilege that pays not one centavo and that most of them aren't competent to use wisely anyhow." (pp 32)

The recruiting sergeant on duty when Rico signs up has no legs and only one arm. Because, he explains:

"... suppose we do make a soldier out of you. Take a look at me - this is what you may buy... If you don't buy the whole farm and cause your folks to receive a 'deeply regret' telegram." (pp 30)

 

[Connavar]

Again, that's not what it says in the book.

When Rico signs up, and is given a physical, the doctor says to him:

"No offense. But military service is for ants ... And for what? A purely nominal political privilege that pays not one centavo and that most of them aren't competent to use wisely anyhow." (pp 32)

The recruiting sergeant on duty when Rico signs up has no legs and only one arm. Because, he explains:

"... suppose we do make a soldier out of you. Take a look at me - this is what you may buy... If you don't buy the whole farm and cause your folks to receive a 'deeply regret' telegram." (pp 30)

You are right about that. I think military service of any kind was a must. Doesnt mean all military work are dangerous like the foot soldier or the pilots.

Funny though that people that think the book is too much military love never mentions pp30 with The recruitment sergeant showing it aint all about the glory of miltary service.

 

[Taltos]

Back on the topic of best Heinlein book - my favorite is Time Enough for Love - especially the Lazarus Long Notebook.

 

[iansales]

No, but only military veterans are given the vote. As if having fought in battle makes you better qualified to help govern a nation. Which is just plain rubbish, and trades on the myth of violence as noble and effective, of might is right, and all that right-wing nonsense.

 

[Vladd67]

Also, Heinlein told Haldeman that The Forever War was probably the best far future war epic he'd ever read. I haven't read it yet, but I wiki'd it. It definitely sounds like something I should try once my pile of backlogged books gets whittled down a little.

Please read it before the film comes out and shows you a cheap Hollywood version of a great book.

 

[Pyan]

Please read it before the film comes out and shows you a cheap Hollywood version of a great book.

Agreed, Vladd - I shudder to think what they'd do to the delicate balances in the book.

 

[J-Sun]

No, but only military veterans are given the vote. As if having fought in battle makes you better qualified to help govern a nation. Which is just plain rubbish, and trades on the myth of violence as noble and effective, of might is right, and all that right-wing nonsense.

Not to be an "apologist" for the book but that's not what he's saying at all. (Though, I'll grant that, if it's true that no provision is made for alternative forms of service, it does weaken the case.) It's not the violence and might is right and what not. He's depicting a society in which you only earn a "right" of citizenship if you are willing to defend that society - it's about self-sacrifice and so on. And it's important to keep in mind that this is a draft-less society. Rather than giving everyone citizenship and essentially enslaving those unwilling to serve under penalty of prison as almost the only means to avoid their possible deaths or having to kill others, Heinlein's depicted society (and keep in mind that, while not necessarily antithetical to Heinlein, it is just fiction - a thought experiment that he might not fully believe in himself, of course) - Heinlein's depicted society reverses that. No one can be compelled to face death or prison but they also aren't simply given citizenship. And, in this sense, it's actually anti-totalitarian. A draft is coercion that could be used to prop up a decadent civilization. An all-volunteer military is, according to the limited parameters of the book, by definition a free society and the post-service franchise completes the voluntary social contract.

In essence, it simply trades a forced draft and right of citizenship for a volunteer military and privilege of citizenship.

And, of course, it's important to keep in mind that this was intended to be the (unlucky) 13th Scribners' juvenile. As much as it's taken as a political tract (and politics is hardly absent from Red Planet or Tunnel in the Sky or any Heinlein, really) it's primarily just supposed to entertain kids and teach them to be "good kids" - self-sacrificing, socialized, rising to challenges, etc.

As Taltos implied, though, the extent of this has taken the thread off-topic. Until I re-read the book, I probably shouldn't participate much more, but maybe a dedicated Starship Troopers thread is called for, if there isn't one already.

 

[Pyan]

No, but only military veterans are given the vote. As if having fought in battle makes you better qualified to help govern a nation. Which is just plain rubbish, and trades on the myth of violence as noble and effective, of might is right, and all that right-wing nonsense.

If you think that's what Heinleins view of power was, Ian you should read The Long Watch, collected in The Green Hills of Earth and The Past Through Tomorrow.

 

[ghost8772]

No, but only military veterans are given the vote. As if having fought in battle makes you better qualified to help govern a nation. Which is just plain rubbish, and trades on the myth of violence as noble and effective, of might is right, and all that right-wing nonsense.

Actually, Heinlein didn't give this version of government any more strength than any other he's imagined. During the OCS part I believe there was discussion that this form of government works, chance of open rebellion is reduced because the people who WOULD rebel against the government are already part of the military. he didn't point out that in current politics, government has been overthrown BY the military... kinda implies that the military ran things still.

 

[iansales]

A couple of points:-

J-Sun: "it's primarily just supposed to entertain kids and teach them to be "good kids" - self-sacrificing, socialized, rising to challenges, etc."

"Back to these young criminals - They were probably not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes ... This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and visciousness..." (pp 101)

That's not my idea of how to teach kids to behave...

ghost - "he didn't point out that in current politics, government has been overthrown BY the military"

IIRC, the world of Starship Troopers came about after the military overthrew the government. Unfortunately, I don't have a quote to back that one up.

Finally: Mussolini himself said, "Anti-individualistic, the fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only insofar as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal will of man as a historic entity." Rico is in the military and at war, and so his interests are firmly aligned - by training and indoctrination - along the lines demanded by the Terran Federation. But that continues to hold true should he leave the Mobile Infantry, because only someone who has served is part of the political process.

Pyan - Heinlein was libertarian, and I agree his personal views were not as extreme as those in Starship Troopers. But he's still right-wing as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Connavar]

I just read quite a contraversial claim in "Stranger in a strange land" when Jill tells Mike that "in nine out of ten rapes, the woman is partly to blame". Reflecting his own beliefs I wonder?

In Moon he is almost the opposite in men,women relationships.

You will just have to remember this and compare to other ideas in his similar SF books. He wrote so many stories about different ideologies that you cant just say RAH real views was like or that.

 

[Fried Egg]

I've just finished "Stranger in a strange land" and whilst I did enjoy it, I can't help feeling that it would have been more shocking if I had read it when it came out and before the sexual revolution of the late sixties. It did give me pause for thought in a few places though...

 

[Asmer20]

Ok, I admit it. I only read one Heinlein book and it was about settling an empty planet by kids and they feared this weird monster that wasn't really harmful. I don't remember the title except I think Tunnel was in it.

Tunnel in the Sky

 

[J'Carlin]

On odd days I go with Stranger. On even days I pick up The Harsh Mistress. The rest of his later books are rollicking good stories of women making men look foolish and weak. Yes, including Time Enough For Love. Lazarus' clones could and did beat him at everything he tried.

If you would like to debate this, and are in Northern California in early May let me know and I will be happy to include you in a discussion of this issue as a feature of a Heinlein Blood drive event.

 

[j d worthington]

A RAH Blood Drive? Now, that is definitely something the man would have been behind....