Chevron Order

[hick]

How do people who come to a stargate instantly know the address of the out going wormhole when all the symbols are lit on the DHD. They do not know which order they were pressed in yet they normally know. For example in "children of the gods" Freddy had seen the symbols, but instantly knew the adress in the right order. Also when the NID team who were using the second stargate were discovered and they jumped through the gate Daniel said he missed the address. He would have had the symbols, but not the order. I don't suppose its that hard to find a valid combination with those seven symbols, but we never see anything like this happen.

Well its something that's been bugging me anyway!

Hick

 

[Tiberius]

Interesting. PTeppic, you probably know. What would the point be in dialing the Glyphs in one particular order? They are all still leading to the same single coordinate in space, correct?

 

[hick]

If it does not matter what order then surely there can't be billions of possibilities for gate addresses as Sam has already said. How many combinations of six are there from 38? Don't think its billions, but hey I can't be bothered doing the maths osmeone else work it out.

Hick

 

[Jedispara]

you bring up a very good point there, because if you dialed the same address in any order you could go to someplace else.... so really the order is very important... cause you could go anywhere if you put the wrong order in...

 

[hick]

Exactly

 

[Jedispara]

well put!

 

[PTeppic]

Well, since I have been asked... :rolly2:

Major Ferretti (not Freddy) was badly injured, but watched Apophis actually dial the address for Chulak, so he saw the order, and did not need to guess it.

As for the combinations etc. YES and NO.
Eh? The order DOES matter, but only for pairs of glyphs. As Daniel explained in the film, and Sam will have summarised in the series, the destination point is effectively the centre of the inside of a cube (of space) where the glyphs are the centre of each of the six faces.

You can't have just ANY order, otherwise (let's all imagine some dice) the one would not be opposite the six and so on.

But, you can have the three pairs (of opposite sides) in any order.

Not sure that made sense.

Okay - take a regular die (singular of dice). The glyphs are 1,2,3,4,5,6. Just by luck they appear in the sky equidistantly around a destination point we want to go to. The correct address would be 1,6,2,5,3,4.

Or 6,1,2,5,3,4 or 1,6,5,2,3,4, or 1,6,2,5,4,3.
Or 1,6,3,4,2,5 or 6,1,3,4,2,5 or 1,6,4,3,2,5 or 1,6,3,4,5,2
Or, and so on.
CERTAIN parts can be reversed, but the PAIRS have to be the same.

Imagine looking at the die from above, but drawing a line (in 3d space) between the centre of the 1-face and 5-face. It would not actually intersect with a line from the 2-face to the 6-face. Hence, the PAIRS must be together (but in either order), whilst the order of the pairs need not be....

So a "single" address, can still be listed (I think) at least 16 ways....

 

[shazstar]

I've never heard the dice analogy before thats a good one.

So basically its tied in to glyph space, where stargate glyphs are corresponding to the x, y and z dimensions of space? Right???

hmmm what about the point of origin? that would still stay last wouldn't it???

BTW, this is a silly question, but is the POO is symbolised by a regular glyph? Or are they chevrons? This really confuses me.

Is there a difference between glyphs and chevrons? Argghhhhhh.......my blonde attribute is starting to reveal itself!

 

[Tiberius]

Very interesting...

*Waiter, get me some of that education PTeppic's got!*

 

[Tiberius]

Chevrons, Glyphs, Symbols, Co-ordinates, they are all the same. I prefer to use the common names as seen on many off-world planets... Such as Chappa'ai, Glyphs (although not as popular), stuff like that. Many people have different preferences. I just think Chappa'ai is a cool word!

 

[PTeppic]

(I think Tiberius pretty much covered the synonymity of glyph/chevron etc.)

The POO is also a glyph/chevron - BUT: it seems to be more symbolic for the planet, whereas the "normal" ones are representative of the local star-constellation. Often seen from Earth, for some reason.

Yes, I was assuming the POO goes on the end - by definition it always goes on the end - it is just the ordering of the glyphs within each pair, and the pairs in the sequence that can move - the POO is always last.

XYZ space - there is a loose correlation to the glyphs, sort of. Each chevron appears to "represent" a specific 3D place in space, although due to expansion this position does actually move slightly. The gate address is simply an intersection (or to within a tolerance distance of an intersection) of three pairs of glyphs. So yes, ultimately a 3D point (or sphere) of space is defined, but using a highly visible and more easily relatable system than just XYZ.

Which, of course, are what is used in other sci-fi canons, such as Star Trek, though they pre-chunk space into quadrants, then sectors.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Tiberius
*Waiter, get me some of that education PTeppic's got!*

That would be a five-year interest in computers before a UK honours degree in computing, followed by 10 years working with, er, computers/software in an engineering environment, with a healthy interest in science/engineering and sci-fi shows. [And some post-grad training as well.]

 

[shazstar]

Yeah, the x y and z was covered in the 9th chevron business.

errr....I'll have what Tiberius is having.

 

[Tiberius]

PTEPPIC:

"That would be a five-year interest in computers before a UK honours degree in computing, followed by 10 years working with, er, computers/software in an engineering environment, with a healthy interest in science/engineering and sci-fi shows. [And some post-grad training as well.]"



Well, I have been interested in computers for five years or more, but I don't plan on living in the UK long enough to get an honours degree (I live in the US now). Besides, I would have to learn how to spell all over again, with those additional vowels in certain words like "honours".

I don't think I will be get into computer software, but I will get into computer hardware and web development, and I will get a degree or two with that. Then I will work in environments that are related to those degrees for several years. I do have a healthy interest in science/engineering and sci-fi shows however, so I have some of that stuff done already.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Besides, I would have to learn how to spell all over again, with those additional vowels in certain words like "honours".

Stand back and wait for the bun-fight!

 

[Jedispara]

*my aliens stand to attention behind and grab bun's, General Hammond speeks*

Hammond- Attention, if anyone attacks, we will be forced to attack with deadly bun force.

*the aliens prepare to fire*

 

[Tiberius]

*Wonders what the heck the bun fight is, but also stands back to watch...*

<I hope I haven't set of the UK-US balance by my little "honours" joke...>

 

[PTeppic]

Bun-fight - UK vernacular (slang) for a mild, light-hearted, even humourous bust-up. Literally a fight with buns (small round bread products), or put another way, a food fight! Also used in non-confrontational situations for a small, polite light meal, such as after a funeral when held in a public venue or hall, and when speaking with (some emotion I can't remember the name of).

"Honours" - the internet is alive on the basis of such trivial debates such as Unix v. VMS v. Windows, PC v. Mac, spelling in US v. England/Australia, etc...

My post was reinforcing that in most sensible discussions areas it should only be approached with humour, and not for serious debate which will only ever end in tears, since there is no winning position.

 

[Jedispara]

ah so my aliens can stand down?

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by PTeppic
You can't have just ANY order, otherwise (let's all imagine some dice) the one would not be opposite the six and so on.
But, you can have the three pairs (of opposite sides) in any order.
Okay - take a regular die (singular of dice). The glyphs are 1,2,3,4,5,6. Just by luck they appear in the sky equidistantly around a destination point we want to go to. The correct address would be 1,6,2,5,3,4.
Or 6,1,2,5,3,4 or 1,6,5,2,3,4, or 1,6,2,5,4,3.
Or 1,6,3,4,2,5 or 6,1,3,4,2,5 or 1,6,4,3,2,5 or 1,6,3,4,5,2
Or, and so on.
CERTAIN parts can be reversed, but the PAIRS have to be the same.
So a "single" address, can still be listed (I think) at least 16 ways....

In the middle of writing a LONG reply in one of the other threads (on the P.O.O.) I side-tracked myself, and actually worked out the numbers.

Although (as I said in that thread) there are 1,987,690,320 possible destinations from 38 glyphs (excluding the P.O.O.) on a Stargate, I reckon there are 48 combinations for each single valid address, and therefore (despite my other message!! ) only 41,410,215 actual possible destinations from each gate. And many will not have gates there, since no planet may exist etc. But even a 1% use rate is still over 400,000 planets.

Anyway, for the terminally dull amongst you, here is my maths for "48".

Assume that the glyph address is in pairs, a1,a2,b1,b2,c1,c2 since they opposite sides of the cube. To create combinations we can move the pairs, a,b,c a,c,b b,a,c, b,c,a c,a,b and c,b,a. We can then also move the digits within the pairs.:
121212
121221
122112
122121
211212
211221
212112
212121
Which, by multiplying together, gets 8 pairs options for each of the 6 pair-order possibilities, and so 48 different, valid addreses, for each single actual gate locations!

[But I'm not going to list all 48 only someone asks me REALLY nicely!]