When you don't get SW plots - it's time to worry!

[Tabitha]

OK, can anyone explain this to me.

Darth Sidious = Palpatine right???

Dooku, acting under orders from his master DS, was in negotiations with various and sundry meanies, including the Trade Federation, to create an alliance, with a powerful joint droid arm. Dooku tells Obi Wan that this alliance is banding together to try and defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith that has taken control of the senate. Now, I suppose that he said this to try and get Obi Wan to join him, or tell him something important, whatever.
What were the actual reasons for this alliance?

The clone army was ordered by a Jedi that had died 10 years previously. Obi Wan had no knowledge of it, but presumably neither did Yoda, or he wouldn't have sent Obi Wan to that planet... So who did order it? And why was Jango Fett present on both the planet of the Clones (well, obviously, apart from being the template) AND the planet that Dooku's alliance is on???

But the end of the movie has the droid army preparing to go into battle with the droid armies, right?

um, errrr

Aren't both these armies then under the control of the same man??? Is the goal to destabilise any other power base than Sidious/Palpatine's own?


If anyone can give me a reasonable explanation as to what the xxxx was going on I would be very grateful

Oh, and while I am here - Bail Organa (Jimmy Smits) ends up being Leia's adoptive dad, right?
And am I right in thinking that Boba Fett is a clone of his father?

 

[Dave]

I don't understand the Jango Fett part, or the Dooku part, I'm just hoping they are going to be explained in the end. (There is another part you know, we need to have some secrets.)

The Darth Sideous/ Palpatine thing I think I can explain:

He has deliberately engineered this poiltical situation between the Trade Federation, and other breakaway factions, against the senate, so that the droid and clone armies can be built. The result of this is that:

a) the senate's power has reduced.
b) the Jedi council's power has reduced.
c) he has been first elected leader of the senate, then given extra powers.

He doesn't have control of either army directly, but the ultimate effects of the Clone Wars will be to his advantage, they will weaken all his opposition equally.

I personally, can see this quite easily leading to him keeping the powers he promised to give back after the crisis, and becoming the Emperor. Then once the Empire is established with the clone army as it's own, he can do whatever he wants and no one can stop him, because they are all weakened so much. And he has the Trade Federation's Death Star plans, so he can build the ultimate weapon, and keep his power for ever. Muwahaa!

That is, no one can stop him except an alliance of rebels, a farm-boy with his motley crew of mercenaries, and an old man with a sad devotion to an ancient religion.

 

[Texane]

Darth Sidious = Palpatine right???

Yes. Interesting, though. He was originally Jedi Master Sidious, who was killed ten years ago. Didn't Yoda and Master Windu realize one of their own was not dead?

And why was Jango Fett present on both the planet of the Clones (well, obviously, apart from being the template) AND the planet that Dooku's alliance is on???

Remember, he left the planet of the clones, and was going to meet with Dooku's alliance when Obi wan followed him (and Jango thought he had killed him).

But the end of the movie has the droid army preparing to go into battle with the droid armies, right? Aren't both these armies then under the control of the same man??? Is the goal to destabilise any other power base than Sidious/Palpatine's own?

The clonearmy is preparing for a battle with the droid army because Palpatine, with Dooku's help (and without the Trade Federation's knowledge), is setting them up to battle each other. Palpatine has to have a reason to obtain control of an army; the alleged revolt (set up by Dooku) gave him that excuse.

Oh, and while I am here - Bail Organa (Jimmy Smits) ends up being Leia's adoptive dad, right? And am I right in thinking that Boba Fett is a clone of his father?

I'd forgotten Smits' character was the adoptive father of Leia. And yes, Boba Fett is an exact clone of his father.

 

[Tabitha]

Thanks for the responses guys.

When I said droid army twice - that was a typo, I meant to write clone in place of one of them!

Some questions still remain from your posts.
When do we find out that Jedi Master Sidious died ten years ago?

I know that Jango travelled from one planet to the other - my confusion is over why he was in both places. His presence implies that both of these armies are being 'created' by the same person - Dooku's un-named master and the Jedi who ordered the clones.

Are you suggesting that the jedi thought dead ten years ago is in fact Sidious? If so, I agree with you that it is very strange that the other Jedi did not realise he was not really dead....


As for Dave's idea about the deliberate engineering of the conflict - that definitely 'feels' right, but it is far from explicitly said in the film.

 

[Diamond9697]

I think them not realizing it would have to be that old adage about the dark side clouding things. They couldn't sense him because he was now part of the dark side and therefore not something they could easily detect unless maybe they were actually looking for him specifically. And since they think he's dead they would have no real reason to look.

 

[Texane]

Are you suggesting that the jedi thought dead ten years ago is in fact Sidious? If so, I agree with you that it is very strange that the other Jedi did not realise he was not really dead....

Yes. Master Jedi Sidious who died ten years ago is now Darth Sidious = The Emporer. He must be incredibly strong to keep the other Jedi from knowing he's been alive for 10 years.

 

[Dave]

Something in this plot doesn't work though:

Sidious is also Senator Palpatine, correct?

To become a Senator, you would have to first rise to some sort of high status on your home world, maybe win elections, or have been some local governor or mayor for a period of time. We know that he did do this, and had influence in the Trade Federation.

How could he do all that is such a short space of time?

He could have lived a dual life as both Darth Sidious and as a Jedi Council member Master Sidious, but I find it hard to believe that he could have also been a local politician at the same time too. He would have been recognised.

So maybe they are not the same person.

Am I right in thinking they were the same actor though?

And Episode I implied that they were the same person, didn't it? That's the conclusion everyone made anyway.

I'm very confused too now, maybe Count Dooku is DS?

 

[Tabitha]

RE: Count Dooku as Darth Sidious ---> He (CD) makes several references to 'his master' in the film, surely this would be going overboard in the misdirection stakes. It would also then suggest that DS and the jedi who ordered the clone army and then died 10 years ago are NOT one and the same.

I think we are overthinking the possibility of Darth Sidious being someone other than Palpatine. The same actor (Ian McDiarmid) has played Emperor Palpatine in the first movies, and both Darth Sidious/"The Phantom Menace" and Senator Palpatine in Episodes 1 & 2. Sidious's whole look is exactly like that of the Emperor, and the Senator obviously becomes the Emperor later (name kinda gives that away).

And while I am on the topic - if you give a jedi a name like "Sidious", of course he is going to end up bad!

I am still quite confused though. If we are to believe that Sidious is the Jedi master that has gone bad (and the council believes to be dead) I still have a question or two.

Is it unusual that the jedi has gone from being a 'good' Jedi master Sidious, to an 'evil' Darth Sidious? Anakin becomes known as Darth Vader. For some reason this suggests to me that when you go bad, you take a new name to go along with your 'Darth'. This also draws into question why the name Sidious is never heard in the original trilogy - the Emperor would be going by his assumed name after faking his own death.

I think it is more likely that the Jedi master Yoda and Windu referred to was actually someone else that was also working for Sidious/Palpatine

 

[HeyLynny]

I was confused too?

I was confused too, but then I read the book, and then I saw the movie again. The book really helped, because the movie went by so fast it was hard to remember every single detail. You should see my book...it has about 50 yellow post it notes sticking out of it. Anyway...

Here is my take on all of this:

10 years ago Jedi Dooku and Jedi Sifo Dyas (a.k.a. Sidious/Palpatine) were both in the Jedi order together. Sifo Dyas took Dooku on as his apprentice. Sifo Dyas faked his own death, changed his appearance and became Palpatine (and later became Sidious). Jedi Dooku left the jedi order and changed his name to Lord Tyrannus. Tyrannus later hired Jango Fett to be the head clone.

Also, I think that maybe Jango is a Geonosian. That coule be why he was on that planet. Because the Kaminoans said that Jango does his own thing, he's fre to come and go, they just use him when they need him. Maybe Jango came from Geonosis. Just a thought.

I also thought this connection was really cool:
Yoda trained Dooku
Dooku trianed Qui Gonn
Qui Gonn trained Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan trained Anakin

This scene went by very fast, so I'm not sure if I was seeing things....when Anakin was in the garage at the Lars Homestead, the speeder that was in the background looked like the one Luke uses in Episode IV. Did anyone else catch that?

I also liked seeing the Mellenium Falcom when Anakin and Padme are landing on Naboo.

 

[Tabitha]

Re: I was confused too?

Originally posted by HeyLynny

Here is my take on all of this:

10 years ago Jedi Dooku and Jedi Sifo Dyas (a.k.a. Sidious/Palpatine) were both in the Jedi order together. Sifo Dyas took Dooku on as his apprentice. Sifo Dyas faked his own death, changed his appearance and became Palpatine (and later became Sidious). Jedi Dooku left the jedi order and changed his name to Lord Tyrannus. Tyrannus later hired Jango Fett to be the head clone.

Now that makes sense. But there is no way we could draw all that information purely from watching the movie, right?

Is Tyrannus mentioned in the movie? Or did you pick up that name from somewhere else?

 

[HeyLynny]

Lord Tyranus is mentioned twice in the movie. The first time is in Jango's apartment. He tells Obi-Wan that he was hired by Tyranus, not Sifo Dyas. Then at the very end of the movie when Darth Sidius greets Dooku by his ship, Sidius says "Welcome Lord Tyranus".

 

[Diamond9697]

Re: I was confused too?

Originally posted by HeyLynny

10 years ago Jedi Dooku and Jedi Sifo Dyas (a.k.a. Sidious/Palpatine) were both in the Jedi order together. Sifo Dyas took Dooku on as his apprentice. Sifo Dyas faked his own death, changed his appearance and became Palpatine (and later became Sidious). Jedi Dooku left the jedi order and changed his name to Lord Tyrannus. Tyrannus later hired Jango Fett to be the head clone.

Okay I have a question...there can only be two Sith at any given time...the master and the apprentice...so Sidious had to have taken Dooku as an apprentice after Maul got whacked right? And ten years ago Paltpatine was already a Senator or something for Naboo so he couldn't have been with the jedi at the time could he? am i missing something here?

 

[Tabitha]

Re: Re: I was confused too?

Originally posted by Diamond9697

Okay I have a question...there can only be two Sith at any given time...the master and the apprentice...so Sidious had to have taken Dooku as an apprentice after Maul got whacked right? And ten years ago Paltpatine was already a Senator or something for Naboo so he couldn't have been with the jedi at the time could he? am i missing something here?

Where did you get the idea that there can only be two sith at any given time? Do you mean how, like the jedis, they are always in pairs of master and apprentice? Or is there something else I am missing?

 

[Diamond9697]

It was mentioned in The Phantom Menace...after Darth Maul showed up Yoda and Mace Windu discussed it I believe because they wondered whether Maul was the Master or the Apprentice.

 

[DCBastien]

*wavies*

The quote is:

Yoda: "Always two there is, a master and an apprentice."

Mace: "But which was destroyed? The master, or the apprentice?"

So Sidious would have taken Dooku on as his apprentice after Maul died. But... who was Sidious' master? *g*

He's a Naboo senator in TPM-- which means he has to have been born there. It would be too difficult to fake an entire past... wouldn't it? And Yoda and Mace would have known that Syfo-Dias came from Naboo if he didn't fake it... so when they go to the Senate so many times and see him speaking.... But would they be expecting him to still be alive?

 

[Tabitha]

My point was: There can be more than two Siths.

Yes they still come in pairs, but surely there can be more than two at any given time.
I wonder who Dooku has been training.... And, as Skip mentioned, who trained Sidious.

 

[DCBastien]

.....Would it be possible for, once upon a time when the Force is foggy- a leading Jedi, maybe even a Councilor, to be a Sith??? Perhaps.

And we all know who Sidious has his eye on next!

Which would lead to the question: why only Vader and Sidious later? They wiped out as many Force-adepts as they could... so as not to challenge their own power, obviously... so if there were other Sith... they're going to be betrayed!

 

[HeyLynny]

Diamond, You're right! Then who the heck is Sifo Dyas? Does anyone know?

 

[DCBastien]

Here's the thread: Who is Syfo-Dias?

Hope that helps!

 

[pkgrl]

You guys sound plenty confused, and I think you're just trying too hard to read into it.

Syfo Dias can't be Sidious/Palpatine because of the reasons mentioned. Syfo Dias was not only a Jedi, meaning he grew up in the temple, but he was on the Jedi Counsel, meaning he devoted his life to maintaining the Jedi Order. He may have been manipulated or betrayed, but he wasn't Sidious. Palpatine/Sidious has not devoted his life to the Jedi order, but to politics. Remember Obi-Wan's words: "He is a politician... not to be trusted... very good at swaying with the prejudices of the Senate." It's very doubtful ANY Jedi Counsel member would EVER enter into politics.

Now, remember this. As a politician, Palpatine is outstanding at manipulation. He's been orchestrating his rise and the decline of the Republic and especially the Jedi for YEARS. Even before TPM, he was already (as Sidious) positioning Naboo and the Trade Federation into conflict. Everything he does adds to the debates in the Senate and taxes the Jedi's resources. His ultimate goal is not only supreme power for himself, but the elimination of the Jedi, since they are the only REAL threat to the Sith.

As for the Sith, it's been well established in LOTS of the SW literature that there can be only two... a master and an apprentice, and that the apprentice is always scheming, trying to find his/her own way to the position of master. That's why Vader tried so hard to tempt Luke. With Luke as his apprentice, they could destroy Palpatine and Vader could take over. It's the nature of the Sith that there can't be more. There were at one time, but they destroyed themselves. Not enough power to go around. (You gotta go way back to the "ancient" history told in the comic book series' Golden Age of the Sith, Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War for all this info) This is one of the things Lucas stuck to, so I'm sure we won't see any more than two Sith lords at any one time in the films. Doesn't mean there aren't people studying the Sith "teachings" around the SW galaxy. They just aren't very powerful.

Anything look clearer? More confused?