StarGate casting biased by race
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spookypumpkin
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Originally posted by Hatshepsut
so for a more demographically balanced team, Quinn ought to be gay
--
i reckon he could be..... i mean, theres nothing against it, right? hes just a nice guy. but it wouldnt really mean much to the team, coz its not like the alien thing, its just gay. a ""gay bloke's"" perspective isnt really going to alter the team much
xox
spookypumpkin
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AND that amanda tapping has a no-nudity clause in her contract, but they could get body doubles, so that comment was neither here nor there.
xox
Prometheus
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Makepeace etc
I think the issue with Makepeace is that he and his ilk betray trust as a matter of course in order to acquire and monopolise technology, whereas the heros have forged alliances with valuable friends.
The two are mutually exclusive, one cannot make friends if one provably betrays trust so the efforts to steal or sequester technology from others undermine efforts to negotiate for it and to retain pacts of mutual support with aliens and other human powers (eg Asgard & Russia).
So which is more important ?
IMHO It is a good example of how morality is about survival, not about being holier than thou.
The same applies to racism. What kind of message is sent when non white ethnicity is used as a synonym for villain ? It is insulting at the very least, contributing to a problem of racial distrust as it betrays a prejudice which is based on a culture which gravitates towards the abuse of power rather than mutual acceptance and accommodation.
There are people who seem to believe that an abuse of power can be maintained indefinitely, but historically the abuse of power always meets a reckoning, and if not peaceful eg the Brits leaving India thanks to Ghandi, or the overthrow of Apartheid in S Africa thanks to Nelson Mandela, then forceful such as the Independance of America from the Brits and the French Revolution etc. I know which I would prefer.
The war against terror entails a campaign against the abuse of power also, wherever it is found, or it is a war which will never end.
Hatshepsut - maybe you met Topeza ?
I think the issue with Makepeace is that he and his ilk betray trust as a matter of course in order to acquire and monopolise technology, whereas the heros have forged alliances with valuable friends.
The two are mutually exclusive, one cannot make friends if one provably betrays trust so the efforts to steal or sequester technology from others undermine efforts to negotiate for it and to retain pacts of mutual support with aliens and other human powers (eg Asgard & Russia).
So which is more important ?
IMHO It is a good example of how morality is about survival, not about being holier than thou.
The same applies to racism. What kind of message is sent when non white ethnicity is used as a synonym for villain ? It is insulting at the very least, contributing to a problem of racial distrust as it betrays a prejudice which is based on a culture which gravitates towards the abuse of power rather than mutual acceptance and accommodation.
There are people who seem to believe that an abuse of power can be maintained indefinitely, but historically the abuse of power always meets a reckoning, and if not peaceful eg the Brits leaving India thanks to Ghandi, or the overthrow of Apartheid in S Africa thanks to Nelson Mandela, then forceful such as the Independance of America from the Brits and the French Revolution etc. I know which I would prefer.
The war against terror entails a campaign against the abuse of power also, wherever it is found, or it is a war which will never end.
Hatshepsut - maybe you met Topeza ?
No nudity here 
When originally broadcast over our totally morally correct television, there was not a bush to be seen in that first episode. Imagine my surprise in viewing the DVD version -- entirely uncensored, of course. Fortunately my "innocent" child is a teenage male who thought it was great.
Though I enjoy viewing beautiful nudes of either gender, I have wondered what plot purpose was served by such display, other than the purely "artistic."
When originally broadcast over our totally morally correct television, there was not a bush to be seen in that first episode. Imagine my surprise in viewing the DVD version -- entirely uncensored, of course. Fortunately my "innocent" child is a teenage male who thought it was great.
Though I enjoy viewing beautiful nudes of either gender, I have wondered what plot purpose was served by such display, other than the purely "artistic."
This is a very worthwhile debate I have just returned to find! Promethieus, I can certainly understand your perspective on the issue, and it is interesting that it is a widely unacknowledged fact of the show. Without diverting to a racism/discrimination debate, I would like to raise a point that as yet has not been mentioned.
Is it not entirely possible that the high ratio of African-Americans (as one example of the minorities in question) cast by the series in predominantly "bad guy" roles, is an effort by the series to maintain continuity from the original series, where Ra and his associates (for lack of a better word, I make them sound like lawyers!) are portrayed (through makeup and costumes) as exotic, to symbolise the differences and alienism between them?
Is it not entirely possible that the high ratio of African-Americans (as one example of the minorities in question) cast by the series in predominantly "bad guy" roles, is an effort by the series to maintain continuity from the original series, where Ra and his associates (for lack of a better word, I make them sound like lawyers!) are portrayed (through makeup and costumes) as exotic, to symbolise the differences and alienism between them?
Earthly limitations
Shazstar has made a valid point. SciFi has always had to contend with presenting aliens with actors who look basically like us because that's what we've got. Star Trek's various shows have made grand use of latex, but largely focused on the upper face (nose crinkles, brow ridges, etc.) Muppets, animatronics, and CGI have opened entirely new possibilities, but much of the technology is expensive, especially if it is to be believable.
I don't think there is an intentional racial bias necessarily, except that the bulk of the viewers can be persuaded to see certain actors as "exotic" and hence "alien."
Perhaps when theatrical agents start screening talent from neighboring star systems ...
Shazstar has made a valid point. SciFi has always had to contend with presenting aliens with actors who look basically like us because that's what we've got. Star Trek's various shows have made grand use of latex, but largely focused on the upper face (nose crinkles, brow ridges, etc.) Muppets, animatronics, and CGI have opened entirely new possibilities, but much of the technology is expensive, especially if it is to be believable.
I don't think there is an intentional racial bias necessarily, except that the bulk of the viewers can be persuaded to see certain actors as "exotic" and hence "alien."
Perhaps when theatrical agents start screening talent from neighboring star systems ...
CynVision
CO, RDA's Leather Brigade
Again, how exotic they are depends on what ethnictisity you are and how many of the other ethnictisity live in your neighborhood.
But I think I get your drift. The choosing of having one ethnictisity for a group of aliens becomes sort of symbolic. Clues in the viewer in a quick and dirty way. But for each person a racial connotation can seep in. That's the risk you run as a casting director.
I'm a bit wondering what a survey of the worldwide fan demographics would reveal about who watches SG and if they notice or care about the real-life inconsistancies. Or, I guess, its the glaring difference to their own local culture. Do they see the show as "American" and prone to such stuff as racism? Or is SF forgiven this on the grounds that it's SF? "Only thosecrazy Americans, Brits and Aussies make this stuff..." kind of thing? Does SG "play well" in places with a non-white majority?
CynVision
CO, RDA's Leather Brigade
Re: Earthly limitations
How odd that that sort of thing is a safer thing to explore than the expected skintones of the Jaffa.
I got the biggest thrill out of the alien race in Scorched Earth having tails. Even if it was CGI, the ep explored a bit of the physical differences that made up biology and a difference in art/music.
How odd that that sort of thing is a safer thing to explore than the expected skintones of the Jaffa.
imported_TheDoc
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I don't know about places with a non-white majority, but I can tell you what SG looks like to us here (europe). now, of course I can't speak for every european, I can just talk about the people I meet and talk to.
while the previous seasons of stargate were, despite the "military background" (and military has a completely different place in society here than in the usa), mainly considered a "sci-fi" show, it has now become "just another one of those american army shows". which doesn't mean the show is bad - it's just a *different* show.
I don't know how far the US media have covered the shootings at the school in erlangen, germany, couple of weeks ago? well, as usual, when something like this happens, you got all these experts talking about the reasons, who's responsible. and, of course, main responsible (according to the experts, I see this different) are bad music and bad movies. do you believe me I was seriously shocked when germany's biggest radio station did an analyzis and one of the potential violent shows mentioned was stargate?!? and then I sat down and thought - wow, heck, they're not completely wrong - the jaffa *are* mowed down like in a war movie.
this has, quite honestly, shocked me more than any re-casting, additional casting or plot holes. hey, not that I want sg-1 to stop fighting the goa'uld and start a knitting circle instead. but this was a big hint for me things might develop in a direction I'm not comfortable with.
hope this made any sense.
the doc
Point of View
I suppose in Asia or Africa, those of white European descent might seem exotic. And while using certain features to mark out one set of characters as aliens, nothing prevents aliens from being a mixture, just as terrestrial inhabitants show a variety of shapes, sizes and colours.
I remember the flack when Paramount cast Tim Russ as a Vulcan. No one was prepared for a black Vulcan, but it made perfect sense to me. Klingons have been a several shades, as well. So, why not the Jaffa?
As to violence mentioned by TheDoc, the US has had far too many school and workplace shootings. It is always terrifying and tragic, but the amount of analysis going into TV, films and video games does not take into account the level of violence that has always been present in our society. Why should anyone single out "Stargate"? Shakespeare is pretty violent, too. And so is soccer ... and hockey ... and football. Then there's the Crusades and the Inquisition. Wars are messy, too.
I don't think performances meant for entertainment cause violence in society. It is that tension in society -- rising from inequities, frustrations and fanaticism -- that makes some entertainment believable only if there is a level of violence. Perhaps by having a controlled outlet for those emotions we can reduce the amount of real world violence. Stories can teach.
I suppose in Asia or Africa, those of white European descent might seem exotic. And while using certain features to mark out one set of characters as aliens, nothing prevents aliens from being a mixture, just as terrestrial inhabitants show a variety of shapes, sizes and colours.
I remember the flack when Paramount cast Tim Russ as a Vulcan. No one was prepared for a black Vulcan, but it made perfect sense to me. Klingons have been a several shades, as well. So, why not the Jaffa?
As to violence mentioned by TheDoc, the US has had far too many school and workplace shootings. It is always terrifying and tragic, but the amount of analysis going into TV, films and video games does not take into account the level of violence that has always been present in our society. Why should anyone single out "Stargate"? Shakespeare is pretty violent, too. And so is soccer ... and hockey ... and football. Then there's the Crusades and the Inquisition. Wars are messy, too.
I don't think performances meant for entertainment cause violence in society. It is that tension in society -- rising from inequities, frustrations and fanaticism -- that makes some entertainment believable only if there is a level of violence. Perhaps by having a controlled outlet for those emotions we can reduce the amount of real world violence. Stories can teach.
CynVision
CO, RDA's Leather Brigade
Re: Point of View
What we've lacked in a lot of American TV (and with the POV shooter games) with shooting violence is conquences arising from all the shooting. Or maybe there needs to be a lot more behind-the-scene specials showing how all this was done and how it's all fake. Beat it in nine ways to Sunday that it was not real and you can't get away with blowing your classmates away. Enjoy the fiction while it lasts, the reality is a PITA to live through.
From school shootings, maybe we've learned that the sanity of the teenaged male is a bit more fragile than once thought. Or the lack parental involvement and caring and dicipline ten years ago is coming back to bite us. The kids that acted out in the grade school classroom are young adults now...
The fact that SG was singled out may sound unfair, but also means it's hit some sort of mainstream. And what it is showing is four American soliders blowing squadrons of the evil Jaffa away.
IIRC, Shakespear didn't spend a lot of time on special effects. He had most of his big, war-type violence off-stage, out of site, had some character talk about it a bit and let the audience's imagination take it from there (which of the age was way more used to killing live food and stuff like that.) People have been saying for ages that the Road Runner and Cyote cartoons were overly violent. And I notice that they're not on on Saturday mornings anymore. They were my sister's and my favorite not for violence but tenacity and inventiveness. Little kids have a fine appreciation for pretend stuff and know they can't drop a rock on their siblings. (as some days we might like too.)
What we've lacked in a lot of American TV (and with the POV shooter games) with shooting violence is conquences arising from all the shooting. Or maybe there needs to be a lot more behind-the-scene specials showing how all this was done and how it's all fake. Beat it in nine ways to Sunday that it was not real and you can't get away with blowing your classmates away. Enjoy the fiction while it lasts, the reality is a PITA to live through.
From school shootings, maybe we've learned that the sanity of the teenaged male is a bit more fragile than once thought. Or the lack parental involvement and caring and dicipline ten years ago is coming back to bite us. The kids that acted out in the grade school classroom are young adults now...
The fact that SG was singled out may sound unfair, but also means it's hit some sort of mainstream. And what it is showing is four American soliders blowing squadrons of the evil Jaffa away.
wow . . .
big issues . . . lots of ideas to consider . . .
Re: exotic - I suppose I think of the Egyptians and Europeans, no matter what their rank or caste, to be much darker than I am (red head, very pale) simply because of where the country is located. The Klingons - I suppose I never thought about it, other than anyone of any color could be a Klingon (if you could eat their food). And although I do not deny casting can be (in any show) tainted with racial bias, I do not believe all African American actors are viewed as the "bad guys": ER, Scrubs, Stargate, Star Trek Next Gen, Deep Space Nine, Smallville, The Practice, Ally McBeal, Angel, The Hughleys, Wife and Kids, Girlfriends, The Parkers, 7th Heaven, The West Wing.
Unless, of course, they want to be (Blade I & II, Wesley Snipes, Spawn).
big issues . . . lots of ideas to consider . . .
Re: exotic - I suppose I think of the Egyptians and Europeans, no matter what their rank or caste, to be much darker than I am (red head, very pale) simply because of where the country is located. The Klingons - I suppose I never thought about it, other than anyone of any color could be a Klingon (if you could eat their food). And although I do not deny casting can be (in any show) tainted with racial bias, I do not believe all African American actors are viewed as the "bad guys": ER, Scrubs, Stargate, Star Trek Next Gen, Deep Space Nine, Smallville, The Practice, Ally McBeal, Angel, The Hughleys, Wife and Kids, Girlfriends, The Parkers, 7th Heaven, The West Wing.
Unless, of course, they want to be (Blade I & II, Wesley Snipes, Spawn).
spookypumpkin
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and there's cronus, and sokar, and the aschen.
Back to the Nudity Issue . . .
Knowing that SciFi will return to the beginning in October and wondering exactly WHAT they will show of the stripping scene, I watched COTG on DVD yesterday.
I realize there is a strong double standard about which gender appears in full frontal (outside of porn films, of course) and I'm no prude about nude, but the scene is very very nude. None of that appeared in the original broadcast here in the US as far as I know. Of course, there are things that go on home video that never see the inside of a theatre or light up a TV screen. Is this scene one of those, meant only to spur DVD sales?
Since every country and network has different standards, I'd like to know if the nudity was shown in Canada and Britain or was it "trimmed" for prime time?
Knowing that SciFi will return to the beginning in October and wondering exactly WHAT they will show of the stripping scene, I watched COTG on DVD yesterday.
I realize there is a strong double standard about which gender appears in full frontal (outside of porn films, of course) and I'm no prude about nude, but the scene is very very nude. None of that appeared in the original broadcast here in the US as far as I know. Of course, there are things that go on home video that never see the inside of a theatre or light up a TV screen. Is this scene one of those, meant only to spur DVD sales?
Since every country and network has different standards, I'd like to know if the nudity was shown in Canada and Britain or was it "trimmed" for prime time?
spookypumpkin
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they showed COTG recently in the UK and they cut out the whole nude scene
spookypumpkin
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stripping scene? missed that one... who's stripping?
So That's What "Premium" Means
We don't subscribe to Showtime, HBO, etc. and miss out on a number of programs -- including catching SG1 first time around. We get SG1 over regular cable and local broadcast, always two seasons or so behind. And cut somewhere between the tasteful and the puritanical, it seems.
Any idea if all the seasons will make it to DVD or is marketing waiting to see how each set sells before committing to the next?
We don't subscribe to Showtime, HBO, etc. and miss out on a number of programs -- including catching SG1 first time around. We get SG1 over regular cable and local broadcast, always two seasons or so behind. And cut somewhere between the tasteful and the puritanical, it seems.
Any idea if all the seasons will make it to DVD or is marketing waiting to see how each set sells before committing to the next?
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