Boromir

Counterpoint: Tolkien needed a plot device to separate Frodo and Sam from the group, and a Boromir serves the role while being a nuanced, interesting hero. That is why he is like that. Writers, take note: Plot devices can have depth because they have their own story.

What isn't really explored is whether Frodo's fears are founded: Would other Fellowship members also fall victim to the machinations of the Ring? Probably not in the dramatic way of Boromir, but would the mistrust between elf and dwarf grow? Would Gandalf choose their route poorly? Would Aragon make poor tactical decisions? Was going after the other two hobbits one of them?
 
You are right, @Swank.
Boromir's attempt to take the ring was a plot device to make Frodo separate from the others.
But the story is full of plot devices which forced decisions.
Moria was the quickest way under the Misty mountains, and the Paths of the Dead were the quickest way to Pelargir.
Saruman's Palantir forced choices on Gandalf and Aragorn.
Maggot's mushroom made the hobbit's arrive safely at Crickhollow.
Not to say anything about Gollum.

A story is, after all, just a succession of plot devices, and other choices would have given us other stories.

Boromir's betrayal of the trust given to him, and decisions made because of it, ultimately, leading to the desired conclusion is a plot development that you find in many other stories, real or imagined.
 
farntfar said:
A story is, after all, just a succession of plot devices, and other choices would have given us other stories.
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Including much, much shorter ones. "Let's just give the ring to Gwaihir and have him drop it into Orodruin..."
 
Ah but Gwaihir was considered to be an extension of Manwê and therefore he could not get involved.
Until he got involved of course.
(also only once he couldn't be attacked in mid air by flying Nazgul.)
 
Details, details.

"Let's just give the ring to Landroval and have him drop it into Orodruin..."

;)

And I don't know the exact size of a giant Eagle, but I'd bet that the whole convocation of them would be a match for nine Nazgûl. Pluck them off the back of the fell beasties and let go...
 
It could be argued that the whole quest by the Fellowship had been influenced/undermined by the Ring.

Arguably the greatest trick of Sauron was to persuade/convince his enemies not to use the Ring to destroy him.

The most sensible solution was for the Fellowship to build an army from the free peoples of Middle-earth, and head for Mordor with the Ring. The magical and physical might of elves, dwarves and men would overcome the forces of a Ring-less Sauron.

Boromir was in many respects the sensible one. You don't give the most valuable weapon in Midfle-earth to the weakest person, who has already been seriously injuted, has started to bevome corrupted by the Ring and has already shown how easily he can be influences by its power.

You also don't set off on hour quest from Rivendell without any clear plan of action as to what you are going to do. It's the equivalent of Churchill wandering into Berlin in1942 with detailed blueprints for the creation of the atom bomb. Sheer madness and folly.

The only explanation I can think of is that Gandalf already knew in advance how ghjngs would pan out. We already know that magic in Middle-earth is capable of foretelling future events; so maybe he had had a glimpse in Galadriel's mirror and seen that everything was going tk turn out for the best. He certainly seemed a lot more assured after his retutmrn as Gandalf the White.
 
paranoid marvin said:
The most sensible solution was for the Fellowship to build an army from the free peoples of Middle-earth, and head for Mordor with the Ring. The magical and physical might of elves, dwarves and men would overcome the forces of a Ring-less Sauron.
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I thought it was understood that Sauron had grown plenty powerful without the ring in his possession, and the army you mention was not a match for the men, orcs, trolls, etc of Sauron's hoard.
 
Boromir is desperate to save his own people. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. It means he is attending to his own responsibilities, and Tolkien generally approves of doing the task set before you. (Like Aragorn choosing to try and rescue Merry and Pippin, like certain choices that characters in the Silmarillion don't make, to their cost.) But by accepting a role in the Fellowship he takes on a greater responsibility to all the peoples of Middle Earth. Boromir fails there, as was inevitable, torn as he was from the very beginning. The Council of Elrond was foolish to choose him for the task.

Although dividing the Fellowship turned out to be for the best, so maybe Elrond had a vague foresight that including Boromir was somehow important. "Perhaps character x knew more than he knew he knew" can only explain so much before it turns into an overworked plot device, but LOTR is saved because that is usually not made explicit. Though Gandalf definitely had a feeling about Gollum, other characters maybe had a flash of intuition about one thing or another. And even if they do, it is only one factor in their decisions.

And, ultimately, Boromir's arc serves the story well.
 
The Fellowship had to choose Boromir, as omitting him would have been a slap in the face to the people of Minas Tirith. It was hard enough for Aragorn to acquire their allegiance, but refusing the Steward's son would have cut the ties irrevocably.

Boromir in many ways is us. It is human nature to want to acquire the most powerful weapon and use it to vanquish our enemies. We start off with noble ideas about protecting the weak, destroying evil, and generally being good eggs. But it always goes horribly wrong despite our best intentions: that is Boromir.

And as I mentioned, in another time and another reality, Boromir is the boy who sees the Emperor's new clothes for what they are. "One does not simply walk into Mordor," something that all but he are blind to.
 
Remember as well, that Boromir is effectively doing himself out of a job: as Denethor's eldest son, he would have become the de facto ruler of Minas Tirith and Gondor. It must have soured him more than a little to be returning the King to the throne, and supplanting twenty-five generations of Ruling Stewards. The revelation at the Council of Elrond, when Aragorn produces the shards of Narsil, must have come as a real body-blow to his hopes and dreams of one day wielding the power of the Stewards
 
I think that Boromir, as time went by, was more accepting of Aragorn as his king. He saw his true worth. Denethor had been completely corrupted by his palantir; and even if he hadn't, would be unwilling for his son to be overruled by a stranger who had done nothing to support Minas Tirith. For all his faults, Boromir was an honourable man; his father was not.
 
Pyan said:
Remember as well, that Boromir is effectively doing himself out of a job: as Denethor's eldest son, he would have become the de facto ruler of Minas Tirith and Gondor. It must have soured him more than a little to be returning the King to the throne, and supplanting twenty-five generations of Ruling Stewards. The revelation at the Council of Elrond, when Aragorn produces the shards of Narsil, must have come as a real body-blow to his hopes and dreams of one day wielding the power of the Stewards
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One gets the sense that he was developing a grudging respect for Aragorn. Had the story allowed for his survival the against those orcs, he would come accept the inevitability that his family's rule of Gondor was coming to end. I think it possible that intuit story scenario , He and Aragorn end up friends.
 
BAYLOR said:
One gets the sense that he was developing a grudging respect for Aragorn. Had the story allowed for his survival the against those orcs, he would come accept the inevitability that his family's rule of Gondor was coming to end. I think it possible that intuit story scenario , He and Aragorn end up friends.
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The Steward's gripe was that they had been left to fend for themselves for generations. So why should a stranger suddenly come along and demand their fealty? Boromir was starting to realise that A. Aragorn was worthy to be his King and B.Aragorn would treat the Stewards with the respect and gratitide that they were entitled to.

The main gripe I think of the Stewards though was that they were on the front lines of the defence against Sauron and his hordes, but no one outside of Minas Tirith seemed to know or care. They had been abandoned to fend for themselves, with no thanks or gratitude from any of the people that they were protecting.
 
Denethor was the twenty-sixth ruling steward. The year, when Denethor and Boromir died, was the nine hundred and sixty-ninth of the stewards' rule. Boromir's understanding of the war, the threat, and the enemy was limited.... focused, but limited. @farntfar just pointed out that Denethor had the proper perspective and knowledge. Yet Denethor was planning on denying the throne to Isildur's heir even though he knew the story and traditions of his forefathers. Twenty some generations before, the last king was slain by the Witch-king.... and some fifty generations before that Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.

Elrond had a far superior perspective of the situation and the enemy.

1. Elrond recieved the choice, of being elven or human, from Mandos himself.

2. He'd seen the Valar wage war on Melkor on behalf of the Eldar and the Edain.

3. Galadriel, his mother in-law, lived in Valinor in the light of the two trees.

4. His parents were Earendil and Elwing, legendary heroes under the very protection of the Valar.

5. His grandparents were Tuor and Idril, who knew more about the enemy's schemes and the secret plans of the Valar than anyone.

6. His great grandparents were Beren and Luthien who personally battled Sauron and even Melkor.

7. His great great grandfather Fingolfin fought Melkor in single combat.

8. His great great great grandfather travelled from Cuivienen to Valinor and back with Orome.

No one else in Middle-earth understood the situation, including the methods and plans of both the enemy and the divine allies, like Elrond did... except Gandalf (a divine ally). They were the two who set up the fellowship and the mission.

I think Eru and the Valar are intimately concerned with the lives of all the creatures of Middle-earth. But their active hands are not easily seen nor their efforts readily discerned. I think the power of Ulmo ran up the waterways of Middle-earth. Elrond's great grandfather, Turgon, followed Ulmo's leading to found a secret refuge on an old creek bed. Gondolin was the direct inspiration for Rivendell... and Ulmo may have led Elrond to it. Furthermore, Elwe (one of Elrond's great great grandfather)s had a hidden refuge in a forest, like Rivendell.

Boromir and most people did not account for the Valar nor the will of Eru when planning against the enemy. Elrond and Gandalf did.
 
farntfar said:
And yet, Denethor's speech to Boromir as a child, or to Gandalf, on his arrival in Minas Tirith, is full of a promise to offer exactly that.
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It's one thing to promise to share your lottery winnings with your neighbour after you've bought a ticket. Quite another to hand the cash over when you win!

Denethor was Steward, and would repeat the words of his sworn duty to govern until the King returned. He never expected it to actually happen, or at least not in the form of a nondescript Ranger.

Boromir at least was more honest in saying that Gondor neither had, nor required, a king. And that just because a bloke turned up with a broken sword and the backing of some elves, why should he simply be handed Minas Tirith, when many thousands of the men of Gondor had died defending it.

It would have been interesting to see what Denethor would have done if Boromir had returned, and backed Aragorn's claim. I reckon he would have disowned his son, declaring him bewitched by elves and wizards.
 
Boaz said:
Denethor was the twenty-sixth ruling steward. The year, when Denethor and Boromir died, was the nine hundred and sixty-ninth of the stewards' rule. Boromir's understanding of the war, the threat, and the enemy was limited.... focused, but limited. @farntfar just pointed out that Denethor had the proper perspective and knowledge. Yet Denethor was planning on denying the throne to Isildur's heir even though he knew the story and traditions of his forefathers. Twenty some generations before, the last king was slain by the Witch-king.... and some fifty generations before that Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.

Elrond had a far superior perspective of the situation and the enemy.

1. Elrond recieved the choice, of being elven or human, from Mandos himself.

2. He'd seen the Valar wage war on Melkor on behalf of the Eldar and the Edain.

3. Galadriel, his mother in-law, lived in Valinor in the light of the two trees.

4. His parents were Earendil and Elwing, legendary heroes under the very protection of the Valar.

5. His grandparents were Tuor and Idril, who knew more about the enemy's schemes and the secret plans of the Valar than anyone.

6. His great grandparents were Beren and Luthien who personally battled Sauron and even Melkor.

7. His great great grandfather Fingolfin fought Melkor in single combat.

8. His great great great grandfather travelled from Cuivienen to Valinor and back with Orome.

No one else in Middle-earth understood the situation, including the methods and plans of both the enemy and the divine allies, like Elrond did... except Gandalf (a divine ally). They were the two who set up the fellowship and the mission.

I think Eru and the Valar are intimately concerned with the lives of all the creatures of Middle-earth. But their active hands are not easily seen nor their efforts readily discerned. I think the power of Ulmo ran up the waterways of Middle-earth. Elrond's great grandfather, Turgon, followed Ulmo's leading to found a secret refuge on an old creek bed. Gondolin was the direct inspiration for Rivendell... and Ulmo may have led Elrond to it. Furthermore, Elwe (one of Elrond's great great grandfather)s had a hidden refuge in a forest, like Rivendell.

Boromir and most people did not account for the Valar nor the will of Eru when planning against the enemy. Elrond and Gandalf did.
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Sorry, I posted not realising you had posted this. A much more knowledgable explanation than mine!
 
Reminds me of Monty Python:
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
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Just substitute "strange man with mended sword" for "strange women lyin' in ponds"...
 
@paranoid marvin Thanks, friend.

I don't want to derail the thread and stray too far from Boromir, but I'd like to state a few of my thoughts and interpretations of Tolkien.

Tolkien's methods of storytelling resonate with me.... so I don't have any theories about his characters and world. (Especially because I use The Silmarillion to clarify my thoughts.) When I begin a fantasy book, I suspend my disbelief.... and so magic works because it is. I don't need to know how it works. I don't need to know how prophecy is fulfilled because Eru and the Valar exist. The magics are what they are, but it's the message that interests me more than the methods. Contemporary authors (and their fans even more so) have a need to explain the wonders of magic, races, economics, et al. I guess that I assume an unseen Providence through the Valar.

Then I consider Tolkien's Boromir to Lewis' Edmund. Both succumb to temptation. Both refuse to stay down. Edmund is saved and rejuvenated by Aslan in Lewis' allegory. Boromir's salvation and redemption is not as straitforward, but no less from God. Boromir continues to fight because of his legacy as a Numenorean and their connection to the Valar. But he recieves recognition for his selfless sacrifice by Aragorn... the returning king... a type of Christ.
 
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