Boromir

[Teresa Edgerton]

4. His parents were Earendil and Elwing, legendary heroes under the very protection of the Valar.

5. His grandparents were Tuor and Idril, who knew more about the enemy's schemes and the secret plans of the Valar than anyone.

6. His great grandparents were Beren and Luthien who personally battled Sauron and even Melkor.

7. His great great grandfather Fingolfin fought Melkor in single combat.

8. His great great great grandfather travelled from Cuivienen to Valinor and back with Orome.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Is Elrond wise because his ancestors were wise? But many of those you mention were gone from Middle Earth before he was even born, and his parents departed while he and his brother Elros were yet very young. Too young to be taught by, or to benefit from the knowledge and experience of his forebearers—unless somehow those were bequeathed to him through the very blood in his veins? Certainly he might have inherited many of their finest traits, like intelligence and courage, but not what they knew "about the enemy's schemes and the secret plans of the Valar."

Let us not forget who it was that actually raised the twins after they were essentially "orphaned." It was Maglor son of Fëanor, who though far from the worst of his father's sons, did take part in all of the Kinslayings, who despite his better instincts and gifts still made many bad decisions, driven by the oath he should have known better than to swear in the first place.

If Elrond had wisdom and knowledge, surely it was not because of those who came before him, but the wisdom he developed and the knowledge he accumulated, through his own experiences and observations once he grew to adulthood. Also, perhaps, profiting by the negative example set for him by Maglor and Maedros.

 

[Pyan]

If Elrond had wisdom and knowledge, surely it was not because of those who came before him, but the wisdom he developed and the knowledge he accumulated, through his own experiences and observations once he grew to adulthood.

And let's face it: you're going to pick up quite a bit of wisdom by the time you're 6500+ years old.

 

[Boaz]

@Teresa Edgerton Thank you for actually reading my post and thank you for commenting.

I definitely think there is wisdom passed down from generation to generation. I am not saying it is in Elrond's DNA, but I do think that the legacy of his ancestors influenced him greatly. His family handed down knowledge of the Valar and their wisdom generation after generation. Feanor left the path of wisdom. Feanor's sons followed him, though Maglor became sick of it. Who knew the most of the enemy? The sons and grandsons of Finwe plus his most famous granddaughter, Galadriel knew the most. Did Maglor sugar coat the legacy of the Noldor? Later in life, Elrond himself became a foster father to Estel (Aragorn). Elrond did everything to preserve the heritage of the Dunedain... including their connection to the Eldar and the Valar. Elrond was fully aware of the status of his own father, Earendil.... so much so that Aragorn warned Bilbo of singing about him. Socrates, Paul, and Galileo all passed on before I was born, but I benefit from their knowledge. Following their teachings on logic, morality, and heliocentrism makes me wiser than not. Aragorn was a toddler when his own father died, but he pursued their plans (the family business of fighting the enemy) with all of his might.

I agree that Elrond defined himself by his own choices. My point is that he had this multi-generational legacy of thousands of years from which he could lean and learn. Compare that to Denethor's legacy.... thousands of years, many wise leaders, and a history of friendship with the Eldar and the Valar. Yet, Denethor is one hundred generations removed from meeting the Valar while Elrond met them himself. Denethor relies upon faith on a semi-legendary and oft forgotten past while Elrond has personal knowledge. I guess I think that Elrond, like us, did not re-invent the wheel, but had access to written and oral traditions of his family... and the passion to pursue them.

 

[farntfar]

Bringing your last entry back to Boromir, Boaz, I can't remember exactly where he says it (I think to Pippin, or maybe Merry), but somewhere Gandalf explains that Boromir was, as a child and a young man, more interested in doing his own deeds of prowess than in learning about his family's history, whilst Faramir studied the ancient texts, as did his father, Denethor.
As you also say, these texts would have gone back at least to the creation of Gondor, and probably further, to histories of Numenor, and of the first age, giving Faramir this ancient wisdom, which was denied to Boromir.
Boromir would therefore not have learned the history of the danger in coveting "such things as heirlooms", which, clearly, Faramir had.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Bringing your last entry back to Boromir, Boaz, I can't remember exactly where he says it (I think to Pippin, or maybe Merry), but somewhere Gandalf explains that Boromir was, as a child and a young man, more interested in doing his own deeds of prowess than in learning about his family's history, whilst Faramir studied the ancient texts, as did his father, Denethor.
As you also say, these texts would have gone back at least to the creation of Gondor, and probably further, to histories of Numenor, and of the first age, giving Faramir this ancient wisdom, which was denied to Boromir.
Boromir would therefore not have learned the history of the danger in coveting "such things as heirlooms", which, clearly, Faramir had.

Though Faramir had not been in the presence of the Ring for so long, nor had ample opportunity for the possibilities of what such power could do gnawing on his mind.

 

[Swank]

Boromir was doomed the moment Sean Bean was cast to play him.

 

[BAYLOR]

Boromir was doomed the moment Sean Bean was cast to play him.

And he played another noteworthy doomed character Eddard Stark.

 

[Swank]

And he played another noteworthy doomed character Eddard Stark.

The joke I made is funny because Sean Bean is well known to have his characters killed in movies more than any other actor.

 

[Ursa major]

is well known to have his characters killed in movies more than any other actor.

...even though that's not the case.

Apparently, Christopher Lee used to be in the top spot (with Bean not in the top ten), but he's been pushed into second place (by whom, I don't know).

 

[paranoid marvin]

...even though that's not the case.

Apparently, Christopher Lee used to be in the top spot (with Bean not in the top ten), but he's been pushed into second place (by whom, I don't know).

That assumes that he 'dies' as Count Dracula. I see it more as temporary discorporation.

 

[paranoid marvin]

And he played another noteworthy doomed character Eddard Stark.

Not having read the books, I was gutted and quite surprised when he met his end. I had assumed that the story was about him, when it is more about his descendants.

 

[BAYLOR]

Not having read the books, I was gutted and quite surprised when he met his end. I had assumed that the story was about him, when it is more about his descendants.

Martin as we know, loves to kill off main characters . I was not really surprised when they killed off Ned Stark so early on. He had two fatal flaws , he didn't know how to play dirty and he wasn't all that good at reading people so couldn't readily spot deceit. In the circumstances that he was in and the type of people he was dealing with at court , that pretty much doomed him to his fate.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Martin as we know, loves to kill off main characters . I was not really surprised when they killed off Ned Stark so early on. He had two fatal flaws , he didn't know how to play dirty and he wasn't all that good at reading people so couldn't readily spot deceit. In the circumstances that he was in and the type of people he was dealing with at court , that pretty much doomed him to his fate.

We saw in one of the first scenes his character executing a deserter. He didn't take heed of what the chap was trying to explain to him, he just killed him because that was one of the duties of the Warden of the North. Loyalty and duty were what he lived for, but with an altogether inflexible way of doing it.

The King chose him for his absolute loyalty, but he was entirely unsuited when dealing with political intrigue. And he knew it, because that is why he initially refused to go to Kings Landing. But he ended up going out of duty and loyalty to Robert.

 

[BAYLOR]

We saw in one of the first scenes his character executing a deserter. He didn't take heed of what the chap was trying to explain to him, he just killed him because that was one of the duties of the Warden of the North. Loyalty and duty were what he lived for, but with an altogether inflexible way of doing it.

Way too inflexible to the point of cruelty . I took an instant dislike to him when he killed that deserter.

The King chose him for his absolute loyalty, but he was entirely unsuited when dealing with political intrigue. And he knew it, because that is why he initially refused to go to Kings Landing. But he ended up going out of duty and loyalty to Robert.

He was a very stupid man as were was his Father and brother both who preceded him to the grave.

 

[Pyan]

Sean Bean isn't even in the top twenty of most killed-off actors - Hollywood’s Top Repeat Victims: Infographic Statistics

​

 

[Boaz]

@farntfar I agree. The teaching was obviously there, but Boromir failed in his studies. Is that the fault of the teacher? Faramir passed that lesson with honors... "'But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory."

@paranoid marvin We don't know how the Ring would've affected Faramir over time, but he started at a better place than Boromir. Faramir and Boromir are defined by their choices though they had the same education. Though this comparison is obvious, I think the more important comparison, for Tolkien, is Boromir and Sam. Before the Council of Elrond, the most educated people of M-e could've made a short list to the leaders in the fight against the enemy.... Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, Gandalf and Denethor.... with other captains like Dain, Theoden, Boromir, Erestor, Glorfindel, Elladan and Elrohir. Boromir was on the short list of people placed to be the hero against the enemy.

 

[farntfar]

Boromir was on the short list of people placed to be the hero against the enemy.

Partly, as Elrond said, because he happened to be there, and his way home was the same as the fellowship's path. As Aragorn told Frodo, he also planned to go to Minas Tirith.

It was suggested, I think, that Boromir was fated to be part of the fellowship, by turning up at Imladris at the right moment.
Fate seems much more certain, in Middle Earth than here in Midgard, and, IIUC, it seems to be a tiny trill in the song of Iluvartar.
(I assume that hobbits, being so similar to men, and partaking of the gift of Iluvartar, dying and what not, are part of the third(?) theme that Eru added to the song, making hobbits along with men.)