Saruman

[Legolas]

OMG check this out >> Beware it's a spoiler in a picture - Saruman

Spoiler

If Saruman dies, what on earth are they gonna do in place of the Scouring of the Shire? There'll be no sharkey. The Hobbits have been seriously misinterepreted, they are the courageous ones, but with ppl like Arwen getting in the way, Frodo couldn't do his 'Go back to the Land of Mordor and follow me no more' scene, which showed him to be strong and brave, injured though he was, and throughout the film they had to be rescued by the bigger peeps. And now this, ppl are gonna think Hobbits are small and scared if they ent given a chance to shine and show courage, like Pip, Merry Frodo and Sam in the scouring of the shire. Does this mean we wont be seeing the planting of the new party tree either? Or Sam crying?? This is just madness.

:flash:

 

[Legolas]

Come on someone else must have a view on this.
:flash:

 

[ray gower]

Think I'll wait and see what the film actually does

 

[gr8scott]

Not that I agree with this, but they could successfully cut it out. They could still have the scene in the conquered shire, but without Saruman... maybe the lead villan in that scene would just be Wormtounge.

 

[Stacy]

I agree.

Spoiler

I heard somewhere that the entire Scouring of the Shire sequence is going to be cut from the movie. Then again, those are just rumors. If they do, that goes totally against everything the book is supposed to stand for. The hobbits are supposed to be brave and courageous, not having to get rescued by humans or elves every time they get in trouble.

 

[BAYLOR]

I found an Interesting Youtube take on what would have happened if Saruman had n stayed a good guy.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I found an Interesting Youtube take on what would have happened if Saruman had n stayed a good guy.

I think from Saruman's perspective he was the good guy; or at least initially. He couldn't rely on elves, dwarves and certainly not men , who would all be corrupted by the power of the Ring (as they had been previously). Only someone wise, powerful and with the determination to see things through could destroy Sauron, and it would take single-mindedness to build a force capable of overcoming his foe once and for all.

I think there was genuine surprise when Gandalf refused his offer, as he considered his old friend as the wisest and powerful (after him of course) and together they could have destroyed the forces of Barad-dur. I also think that Sauron in the Palantir showed Saruman what he potentially could become, and perhaps also showed himself as weaker than he actually was. Because despite his wizarding power and the superior ability of the Uruk-hai, the overwhelming forces under the command of Sauron could never have been vanquished by he alone.

Obviously in the end, Sauron became bitter and twisted, as we saw in the Shire, but I think for quite a while Saruman had the best intentions of Middle-earth at heart.

 

[BAYLOR]

I think from Saruman's perspective he was the good guy; or at least initially. He couldn't rely on elves, dwarves and certainly not men , who would all be corrupted by the power of the Ring (as they had been previously). Only someone wise, powerful and with the determination to see things through could destroy Sauron, and it would take single-mindedness to build a force capable of overcoming his foe once and for all.

I think there was genuine surprise when Gandalf refused his offer, as he considered his old friend as the wisest and powerful (after him of course) and together they could have destroyed the forces of Barad-dur. I also think that Sauron in the Palantir showed Saruman what he potentially could become, and perhaps also showed himself as weaker than he actually was. Because despite his wizarding power and the superior ability of the Uruk-hai, the overwhelming forces under the command of Sauron could never have been vanquished by he alone.

Obviously in the end, Sauron became bitter and twisted, as we saw in the Shire, but I think for quite a while Saruman had the best intentions of Middle-earth at heart.

He probably got it his head that being who was and, as powerful as he was , the One Ring couldn't hurt him and, with it, he would make himself the master of it, Sauron and Middle Earth . But thing wouldn't have happened like that at all. Sauron would have likely ended up enslaved to the ring like Gollum and , under Sauron's thumb. Saruman for all of his wisdom and knowledge was blinded by ego , arrogance and desire. Lady Galadriel who was offered the Ring, took it to see if she was strong enough to resist it's temptation , and she was . Unlike Saruman , she recognized the danger the ring posed to her and all of middle Earth . Galadriel did something that Saruman was incapable of doing , she backed way from the temptation and power of the ring.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I think initially Saruman assumed the Ring would not turn back up, so he was amassing an army in preparation for a 'conventional' fight against Sauron; one - with his magical power and enhanced orcs - he thought he could win. If he could destroy the forces in Barad-dur, he had the potential to severely hamper Mordor's growing presence.

The Elves were leaving Middle-earth, and Galadriel had no wish or need for power, so the Ring was perhaps less of a temptation for her. She also had her mirror, so perhaps she had seen a possible future where Frodo and Sam triumphed? Saruman only had his Palantir (influenced by Sauron ), and his ambition and his thought that all others in Middle-earth were weak and fools and that he knew best; he wouldn't (or couldn't) accept that the time of wizards was coming to an end.

To be fair his attitude, like Boromir and Denethor, was a much more pragmatic one. Why would you send the most powerful weapon in Middle-earth straight back to Mordor, and guarded by 2 Hobbits who would likely fall to the first determined enemy that they met? Yes, the Ring corrupts and would inexorably turn the wielder into the next Sauron - or else betray him in order to find it's way back to it's true master. But surely that was a chance worth taking? That if one were true and strong and good enough, they would have the power to destroy Sauron and then destroy the Ring itself?

Boromir would have failed, as would Saruman and certainly Denethor. But Aragorn, who had no love of power or ambition and whose sole purpose was to serve others may have been able to control the Ring, if only for a short while. It could be done, as we saw with Sam who was able to willingly give up the Ring.

 

[BAYLOR]

I think initially Saruman assumed the Ring would not turn back up, so he was amassing an army in preparation for a 'conventional' fight against Sauron; one - with his magical power and enhanced orcs - he thought he could win. If he could destroy the forces in Barad-dur, he had the potential to severely hamper Mordor's growing presence.

The Elves were leaving Middle-earth, and Galadriel had no wish or need for power, so the Ring was perhaps less of a temptation for her. She also had her mirror, so perhaps she had seen a possible future where Frodo and Sam triumphed? Saruman only had his Palantir (influenced by Sauron ), and his ambition and his thought that all others in Middle-earth were weak and fools and that he knew best; he wouldn't (or couldn't) accept that the time of wizards was coming to an end.

To be fair his attitude, like Boromir and Denethor, was a much more pragmatic one. Why would you send the most powerful weapon in Middle-earth straight back to Mordor, and guarded by 2 Hobbits who would likely fall to the first determined enemy that they met? Yes, the Ring corrupts and would inexorably turn the wielder into the next Sauron - or else betray him in order to find it's way back to it's true master. But surely that was a chance worth taking? That if one were true and strong and good enough, they would have the power to destroy Sauron and then destroy the Ring itself?

Boromir would have failed, as would Saruman and certainly Denethor. But Aragorn, who had no love of power or ambition and whose sole purpose was to serve others may have been able to control the Ring, if only for a short while. It could be done, as we saw with Sam who was able to willingly give up the Ring.

The only person in LOTR who seem immune to the ring was Tom Bombadil.

 

[BAYLOR]

Part of me likes the YouTube scenario where Saurman stays a good guy.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Galadriel had no wish or need for power, so the Ring was perhaps less of a temptation for her.

I don't think that is true at all. When Frodo offered her the Ring (in the book) she said that her heart had desired just such an offer. She said she had long pondered what she would do if the Ring ever came to her. (In the movie she said something similar, though not exactly the same.) I think she wanted it very much, the power it represented. It wouldn't have been much of a test if she had not been enormously tempted.

Think about some of the others who could have claimed the Ring. When Frodo brings it to Rivendell, all that interests Elrond is how to get rid of it. Faramir said he wouldn't pick it up if he found it lying in the road (and when he discovers the Ring is actually within his reach he holds by those words). Gandalf said that if he took the Ring it would be out of pity and a desire to do good. Boromir wants to use it to save his city. Sam has a confused vision of himself doing great heroic deeds (well, he's just killed a gigantic spider, after all) and of planting gardens, bringing Mordor into bloom. In other words, Gandalf, Boromir, and Sam all think of what they might do, according to their various natures. Galadriel speaks of what she might become, and it's something she has been thinking about for a long time.

Because she has desired power from the beginning. It's the very reason she is in Middle Earth to begin with. She joined the flight of the Noldor not because she cared about the Silmarils or about waging war on Morgoth. In the Silmarillion, it is clearly stated that she longed for a realm that she might rule. By the time she actually arrived in Middle Earth, she was apparently chastened by the things that had happened along the way: the Kinslaying, the burning of the ships, the crossing of the Grinding Ice. She's seen how her own relatives react to their obsessions. So she initially stayed in Doriath, and even when she left she made no move to claim a realm for thousands of years. Eventually, however, she did just that. Though she and Celeborn ruled Lothlorien as Lord and Lady, not King and Queen, after she is offered the Ring, what is the word that pops out of her mouth? "Queen." So that temptation is still there.

That is why it is the final test she has to pass before she can return to Valinor.

I think for her the temptation of the Ring was more, not less. And that because it was, it demonstrates her strength in turning it down.

 

[Deathbird]

Sam has a confused vision of himself doing great heroic deeds (well, he's just killed a gigantic spider, after all) and of planting gardens, bringing Mordor into bloom.

I am Sam;
Where do gardens come into it?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Where do gardens come into it?

I can't remember the exact quote. But after Sam takes the Ring from Frodo (supposing him dead of spider venom), as he walks toward Mordor entertaining "wild fantasies" he imagines turning Gorgoroth into a vast garden. Then he sort of gets a hold of himself, and decides the small garden of a free gardener is all that is his due.

 

[farntfar]

I remember that too, Teresa. It's in the chapter "The Tower of Cirith Ungol" before he saves Frodo.

Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad Dûr. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.
In that hour of trial, it was the love of his master that elped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived unconquered his plain hobbit sense:...."

And as you say, his knowledge that he wasn't big enough to do it, and that his little garden in the Shire was quite enough.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I don't think that is true at all. When Frodo offered her the Ring (in the book) she said that her heart had desired just such an offer. She said she had long pondered what she would do if the Ring ever came to her. (In the movie she said something similar, though not exactly the same.) I think she wanted it very much, the power it represented. It wouldn't have been much of a test if she had not been enormously tempted.

Think about some of the others who could have claimed the Ring. When Frodo brings it to Rivendell, all that interests Elrond is how to get rid of it. Faramir said he wouldn't pick it up if he found it lying in the road (and when he discovers the Ring is actually within his reach he holds by those words). Gandalf said that if he took the Ring it would be out of pity and a desire to do good. Boromir wants to use it to save his city. Sam has a confused vision of himself doing great heroic deeds (well, he's just killed a gigantic spider, after all) and of planting gardens, bringing Mordor into bloom. In other words, Gandalf, Boromir, and Sam all think of what they might do, according to their various natures. Galadriel speaks of what she might become, and it's something she has been thinking about for a long time.

Because she has desired power from the beginning. It's the very reason she is in Middle Earth to begin with. She joined the flight of the Noldor not because she cared about the Silmarils or about waging war on Morgoth. In the Silmarillion, it is clearly stated that she longed for a realm that she might rule. By the time she actually arrived in Middle Earth, she was apparently chastened by the things that had happened along the way: the Kinslaying, the burning of the ships, the crossing of the Grinding Ice. She's seen how her own relatives react to their obsessions. So she initially stayed in Doriath, and even when she left she made no move to claim a realm for thousands of years. Eventually, however, she did just that. Though she and Celeborn ruled Lothlorien as Lord and Lady, not King and Queen, after she is offered the Ring, what is the word that pops out of her mouth? "Queen." So that temptation is still there.

That is why it is the final test she has to pass before she can return to Valinor.

I think for her the temptation of the Ring was more, not less. And that because it was, it demonstrates her strength in turning it down.

I agree that there was a time when she would have been greatly tempted to take up arms - and perhaps the Ring itself - against Sauron. But my impression is that by the time the Fellowship arrive in Lothlorien she, along with all the other Elves of Middle-earth, have accepted that their time is coming to an end. Speaking in the past tense "I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands." suggests to me that age, experience, weariness - perhaps even visions in her mirror - had brought her to the acceptance that desire for the possession of the Ring was the greatest of follies.

I think I was wrong though in saying that she had no wish for the Ring, for the proximity of it awoke old memories and desires that she thought had been laid to rest. Quite similar to Bilbo when he first met Frodo in Rivendell.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

To get back to the subject of Saruman, I think that like Sauron his intentions were good to the extent that he thought he could run the world better than anyone else could, that ultimately, everyone would be better off with him in charge. They had a lot in common, Saruman and Sauron, both originating as maiar of Aulë. But I don't believe he had the same level of innate power. Sauron was supposed to be one of the most powerful of the maiar, if not THE most powerful. Saruman was not even the most powerful of the maiar in their wizard forms—as we see when Gandalf breaks his staff.

So I think that, with the Ring, Saruman would have been a sort of low-calorie version of Sauron. Still corrupt and evil and terrible, but more easily defeated.



As for the Scouring of the Shire, I have always believed (and still do believe) that contrary to the way many readers interpret it, it does not mean what Saruman and Wormtongue and the corrupted hobbits did to the Shire while Frodo and company were gone. It means the process of cleansing the Shire after our heroes returned. After all, the word "scouring" refers to a cleaning process, not one of rot or corruption or oppression.

So if Saruman had died at Orthanc, as in the Extended Edition of the movie ... well, by that time, I think his plans for the Shire were already in motion. He had sent his agents ahead to pave the way. But I believe it would have all started to fall apart when he never arrived and never sent further word. (Wormtongue, if he even knew how to find the Shire on his own, would not have impressed either the hobbits or Saruman's bullies much by himself.) By the time Frodo and the rest returned, there would still have been some cleaning up to do, but nothing so dramatic as was necessary with Saruman there himself.

I suppose that Peter Jackson chose to kill Saruman (or, in the theatrical version ignore him) after the destruction at Isengard, because he thought that without the titular Lord of the Rings (in other words, Sauron) the real conflict was over, and all that needed doing was to clean up some loose ends. There were plenty of those to deal with as it was. I personally would have been happy if the hero hobbits had to come back home and deal with Saruman and the rest, but I am just as happy with the way it was. The same with [Teresa opens another can of worms] leaving out Tom Bombadil. I see why it was done. I would rather that Merry's sword had come from the barrow, instead of just being handed to him by Aragorn, but would it have been worth all those extra scenes just to establish that—I don't think so.

Even cutting out some of the scenes the scriptwriters invented (and most of those I could have happily done without) I think the movies would have been too long if everything in the books had been included. If ever the trilogy is adapted for a television mini-series (and my hopes of that happening within my lifetime have faded considerably with the decision to produce The Rings of Power instead, but I still think it will happen someday) then Bombadil and the Scouring would most definitely belong there.

 

[Swank]

Reading the contemplation of Galadriel and the ethics of Saruman, I think Lord of the Rings is very much about free will. Unlike much fantasy, the characters see the paths, but aren't constrained by destiny. They keep making choices - and giving themselves the opportunity to make choices. Additionally, events occur in the personal lives of characters that are unprecedented and unlikely - like Gandolf's rebirth or Tom's immunity to history. Characters helmed by destiny don't have unforseen outcomes.

 

[Deathbird]

Tom's immunity to history. Characters helmed by destiny don't have unforseen outcomes.

interesting. Is he frozen in a present state of perpetuity, for instance, how does sitting out the magyar invasion relate to his immunity to the ring’s attraction?

 

[Swank]

interesting. Is he frozen in a present state of perpetuity, for instance, how does sitting out the magyar invasion relate to his immunity to the ring’s attraction?

He's sitting it out because he is not subject to any of the forces involved, including the ring. His interest is like a grandfather politely listening to kids talk about their first boyfriends. The gods of Middle Earth have no jurisdiction over Tom and his wife.