Points for Discussion...(SPOILERS)

[cersei]

Points of Discussion TMR

I am in the "MIM" camp as well as believing Neo is only a programme...but would like to share a few of my thoughts..

1) Others have quoted as if previous versions of The Matrix/Zion, all had its own Morpheus, Trinity etc...I disagree. IF Neo had gone into the Source code, everyone in Zion WILL DIE and he will select a new 23 from The Matrix to rebuild Zion, hence "freeing them" (as told in legend by Morpheus of a previous one whom could manipulate the Matrix and freed the first of us). A new Neo will arise (and yes each time is seems to be the same "keanu reeves avatar" as suggested by montiors showing previous Neo's in Architect's monitors; this further reinforces evidence Neo is only a programme) Each Neo though finds his own path, guided by the Oracle, but not necessarily by Morpheus/Laurence Fishburne avatar (as in could be character named Morpheus but in real world, another new human being)...That's why in 5 previous times, Neo never met anyone as special as Trinity...which brings us to..

2) Role of Trinity...is she more than it seems? Does she play a special role? Could she also be a programme as suggested by some? or even be The One as suggested by others?? Can't quite remember what explanations were provided for these theories...Another intriguing one is she is the real "Mother of The Matrix" since...

3) The Oracle is NOT the Mother of the Matrix? when Neo suggest her in response to Mother of the Matrix, the Architect says "Please!" in a scoffing way as if such a lesser "routine" programme created by him (or by the Mother) could be so...And since assuming genders are mantained (ie Mother will not be represented by some male character), only other 2 significant women are Trinity and ...Persephone

4) What IS the real world situation? From watching Second Renaissance, you can see the Machines did try to make peace with humans which was in turn rejected...what if all the Matrix/Zion is designed to do is HELP us humans? since we screwed things up by destroying our sunlight, we are probably close to extinction...and in this symbiotic way, Machines keep us alive (and for most part for the ignorant in The Matrix, "happy") and we keep them alive from our NTUs generated...after all it is suggested by Counciller Harn (not sure spelling) and the Oracle that man and Machines need to live/work together...

5) Agent Smith's role in this all? I like idea of him being a mirror nemesis for Neo...Neo becomes more machine while Smith becomes more human? Clever link too between the bleeding hands suffered by both as pointed out...as for this "...fighting for..us??!" in revolutions trailer, I must see it myself yet..

The W Brothers have managed to sneak in one of the most powerful script/continuity/sci-fi concept/philosophy/religious meanings in what is labeled by all critics as "sci-fi/action" movie...and yet manage to fulfil all their lifelong "geek dreams" of kung-fu/bullets/superheroes...wow...what an achievement. To those whom have felt "dissapointed" the movie is all figured out, I say that obviously there is more to come but more importantly, why shouldn't the W Brothers rewards those whom do figure it out? They did purposely suggest it all in the Architect/Oracle speeches but beleive it or not, if you did a survey of average people leaving cinema, you will find a vast majority whom did not grasp this concept...yet

so roll on Revolutions....an aching 6 bloody months...

 

[Thulium]

What is the "MIM" camp? Oh wait, Matrix In Matrix?? I suppose that's a possibility, but all that really does is give your brain a bend at the end of the trilogy. I think if the Wachowski brothers are going to do that, it won't be the real answer but just some hint they drop at the very end to put a splinter of philosophical doubt in your mind. The trilogy as a whole has too much ground to cover to really focus on that possibility. ...so although I'll admit that's possible, I'm strongly doubting it. (too cliche' anyway)

*IF* there's a Matrix within the Matrix, then Neo could be a program, but again that's not the direction I'm leaning. I believe that The One is completely human (hence the anomolous nature), but has the Key to the Matrix kernel intrinsically embedded within him. He has this data in his brain in the same way that Bane has Smith stuck in him.


1) I think you nailed it. I couldn't agree more.

2) No question. Trinity is what makes Neo's revision of The One unique from the previous models.

3) Now I need to watch again. I was pretty sure that the Architect was admitting that the Oracle WAS the Mother of the Matrix, but rather it was the title "Oracle" that irrititated him. Besides, only the Mother would know so much about The One.

4) I don't know too much about this possibility...but The Oracle's apparent sympathy for the humans as well as Smith's rejection of the Machines left room in my mind for some sort of peaceful arrangement to be made.

5) Yeah, Smith certainly has a lot of bitterness to deal with... But I wonder how this will play out. The Zionites basically KNOW that Bane had something to do with the sabotage, and I don't think it's in Smith's character to hide it much longer, so I would guess that his physical hands are gonna get proverbially tied real quick. But, again, as he adjusts to life on the other side, I can definately see some room for him to switch sides completely.

There is a LOT to be comprehended in this movie. When I walked out the first time, I was slightly disappointed because no scene had blown my mind like the Lobby scene did in the Original, but I did enjoy the movie. After my second viewing, I've realized that the Architects monologue is enough to blow my mind for quite a few more viewings...at least long enough to keep me occupied until November!

One continuity problem I notice though, in the Architect's office we see the Keanu Reeves "avatar" in all the iterations of "The One"...if that was really the case though, why did the Oracle say "You're cuter than I expected..."? For that matter, why wouldn't more agents or other characters be able to physically recognize The One?

 

[stripes]

1. There isn't any evidence suggesting that Morphous and Trinity were different people, however theres no evidence suggesting that they were the same people as we see them in this sixth cycle. Interesting, nevertheless, I'll just lean towards your argument that they were, in fact, different. You have me convinced with the love for Trinity angle.

2. I don't think Trinity could actually be the "mother of the Matrix", it seems, err, too much of an important role that requires experience. Trinity is no doubt, important, and I believe her love for Neo is her significance as the oracle told her in the original, she is destined to fall in love with "The one". She doesn't seem to fit in with the whole "mother" part, but I could be wrong, quite severly in fact.

3. Yes! I believe the Italian chick may be the mother of the Matrix. The architech was the logic, and Persephone is the emotion behind the Matrix, as evidenced by her lustful kiss.

4. Actually this would go against the first Matrix. I think the councilor was trying to be ironic(and it certainly worked!) , these machines help provide for us, while the "other" machines are coming to destroy us. Though I do see your point, he seemed to sypathize with the machines which was somewhat disturbing, considering their situation. I still believe the machines are angry(as the cause of which can be seen in Renassance part 1), which leads me to believe that the Matrix is far from a scientific study, except a place to keep the humans while the machines absorb all their energy.

5. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what Agent Smith's role will eventually be. To me, he seems like a sub plot, a vius on a personal vendetta. If I had to speculate, sure, then I'll say he'll screw both the machines and Neo somehow, and Neo needs to take him out because he's not only a menace to him, but to everything in general.

 

[cersei]

all good points

great points guys.

Am not sure if the Architect says "Please" in response to Neo suggesting the Oracle as Mother of the Matrix coz the term Oracle is silly notion (since she is really only a programme used to guid The One back to the source rather than actually predicting any future) OR the very thought the Oracle could be the Mother is amusing...

Persephone is a strong candidate for "Mother" since her name is of Greek Mythology being the Wife of Hades (Ruler of Hell)....

As for the Oracle saying Neo is cuter than she expected, remember she always says what the subject wants to hear...

hehe if the W Brothers survey the net chat, they will be well pleased with all the discussion this "action" film has brought about...