The Oracle and The Architect

[Tabitha]

So what are people's thoughts on these two?


Do you believe what the Architect told Neo (or perhaps the more relevant question is, did you understand it?)?

In another analysis of the movie I recently read, someone pointed out that so far, the machines have never lied, I wonder if either the Architect or the Oracle are perhaps the exceptions to this rule?

Is the Oracle really a benign program, a rogue that is attempting to help the humans.
Why would she want them to win? We know she is a program, she as good as said so herself, so WHY is she helping Neo.
Neo describes her as being part of the control function of the Matrix - and this she doesn't deny. It is her that tells Neo to go to the source - which is also the decision that the Architect is pushing on Neo. Go into the source, reboot the Matrix, and start Zion from scratch.

 

[skyron]

they are, after all, machines...

I think, to answer the very good points you make, we must keep in mind that the matrix was designed by machines, intelligent - perhaps even sentient, but machines none the less; and machines (and programs) were ultimately designed by humans to serve humans. Can we apply the Azimov Rules of robotics here?
Are the machines, as manevolent as they may appear, be in fact, carrying out there prime and ancient purpose? Serving man? albeit in a rather strange way?

One of the main themes of the film "the Matrix: Reloaded" was the notion that "we all must do what we were ment to do" This was a mantra of the programs... Smith mentioned the need for purpose otherwise existance was worthless... (the irony is, tho he is grateful to Neo for setting him free, his purpose is to kick his ass.) The Keymaker said that he just does what he is ment to do... (I imagine he is in reality an evolved worm program written by some long dead hacker.) The Oracle herself explanes how there are all sorts of programs controling every aspect of the matrix. And the Oracle herself was, as the Architect points out, "An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche."

Perhaps, the Oracle was a program created long ago by humans as a psycological diagnostic system that has remained bound to the moral and ethical constraints the human doctors that wrote it, seeded within her. She carries out her purpose. She helps humans.

I think it will be revealed that the idea of the " Human Battey Farm" is bogus. Perhaps humans are not enthralled to provide power but in fact to provide the best computer the machines can utilize. The machines enthralled humans as a way of preserving human life in a destroyed and uninhabitable world and using the brain power to run the matrix so that humans can "live a normal life" even if just in thier heads. In so doing, they "serve" humans. in return the machines get a terific "Meat Computer" which allows them unlimited potential. But they are ready to defend the system from those "anomalous" minds that threaten the Matrix's stability.

The Architect says "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." Indeed a good laptop powered by a bushel of potatoes would keep an artificial intelligence program running, but it would not allow for the machines/programs to function as intended...

 

[Mirya]

Re: they are, after all, machines...

Originally posted by skyron
I think it will be revealed that the idea of the " Human Battey Farm" is bogus. Perhaps humans are not enthralled to provide power but in fact to provide the best computer the machines can utilize. The machines enthralled humans as a way of preserving human life in a destroyed and uninhabitable world and using the brain power to run the matrix so that humans can "live a normal life" even if just in thier heads. In so doing, they "serve" humans. in return the machines get a terific "Meat Computer" which allows them unlimited potential. But they are ready to defend the system from those "anomalous" minds that threaten the Matrix's stability.

I never thought of it that way.... Maybe so...

 

[SlimFace]

Actually, the Oracle did lie. She lied in the Matrix, when she told Neo that he wasn't the one. Though she didn't explicitly state that he wasn't going to be the one, she still purposely lead him to believe something that isn't true: one of the many definitions of lying. Maybe this can change our understanding of the programs. Perhaps they will/do lie when it fits their purposes, whatever they may be.

 

[pkgrl]

I guess it all depends on the definition of lying, then, doesn't it?

 

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by SlimFace
Actually, the Oracle did lie. She lied in the Matrix, when she told Neo that he wasn't the one. Though she didn't explicitly state that he wasn't going to be the one, she still purposely lead him to believe something that isn't true: one of the many definitions of lying. Maybe this can change our understanding of the programs. Perhaps they will/do lie when it fits their purposes, whatever they may be.

I was thinking of Neo's first visit to the Oracle - she didn't tell him anything explicitly, she asked him to make his own choices and decisions IIRC. But I looked at this as telling him what he needed to hear to allow him to go down the path to being the 'One".
Exactly what was said is fuzzy for me as it has been such a long time since I have seen the original, but I am almost positive that she didn't lie...

But then, in the meeting with the Architect, he tells Neo that being irrevocably human and incapably of completely understanding some of what he is being told.
SO maybe neither of them really lie???

 

[cersei]

The Oracle did NOT lie to Neo!!!

IN first film, she did NOT say Neo is not the One....

Just paraphrasing as do not have exact text to hand but you will get the gist.....

Neo asks "Am I the one?"
The Oracle asks Neo, "What do you think?"
Neo answers "I am not the One?"
So the Oracle says, "Sorry kiddo. Maybe in your next lifetime"

Did she lie? nope, she says Sorry ie Sorry you don't think you are the One. And also Neo was technically not the One till his next lifetime ie he died before he became the One

so, no lies there. Same as Architect says "Trinity will die and nothing you can do about it". She did die despite Neo retrieving the bullet....fact that he can resurrect her is of of course not mentioned by the Architect but still not a lie '

 

[SlimFace]

Those are some great points that you bring up. Especially, the fact that she didn't lie because he technically wasn't The One until his next life. But, if the definition of The One is the 'anomaly' that has the special code written into him, we might have to reconsider your idea. Assuming that The One has the special code since birth/conception, he's been The One all along.

Also, Morpheus was told that he was going to find The One. He wasn't told that he was going to find the person that was going to be The One; therefore, Neo was The One all along.

And another point: Trinity knew that he was The One before Neo knew it. She knew it because she had fallen in love with him; therefore, he is The One. We are shown this in the scene where he tells her that he's not The One, and she says something like, "No, that can't be true. You have to be The One." Of course, she refuses to tell him why he has to be the one.

 

[pkgrl]

I guess I've seen both of these movies too often, 'cause this is from memory:

Oracle: "Now I'm supposed to say, "Hmmm. That's interesting, but-- Then you say--"

Neo: "But what?"

O: "But you already know what I'm going to tell you."

N: "I'm not the One."

O: "Sorry, kiddo. You've got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something."

N: "Waiting for what?"

O: "Your next life maybe, I don't know."

So... did she lie? Is Neo simply more powerful than she is? Can she only see down certain lines of the "future?" If Neo's choices are important even at this time, maybe what he's waiting for is more proof for himself that he is the One before he believes it himself. The proof for him that does it is Trinity's confession of love.

What would have happened if she'd told him earlier? Like when she says "You have to be [the One]" and he asks why but she clams up? Hmmmmm...

 

[skyron]

It seems to me, (if the theory I have been expounding all over the place here; That Neo is human with a bit of machine code implanted into his emotional make-up), that the higher ups in the machine world would be able to recognize it.
Since "The One concept" is in effect, part of the Matrix the Oracle helped to devise (see archetect's speech) , the Oracle is more likely than anyone (anything) to be able to read the code. Does she see the future? No. No machine can. So the Oracle can only, like a chess program, evaluate future possible events and calculate a probability. However, The Oracle is a program "initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche." but she also lives in the level of the matrix where all the "bad" programs go. the Backdoor world with the Merovingian and the Ghost bros, reside. Programs here have no more further affect on the main Matrix. they are bannished for being inadiquate. Thus we can see that the Oracle has outlived her usefuless to the Matrix for being flawed. Was it this flaw that kept the oracle from recognising in Neo his "destiny"?


From the first movie...

N: "I'm not the One."

O: "Sorry, kiddo. You've got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something."

N: "Waiting for what?"

O: "Your next life maybe, I don't know."

the Oracle recognizes "the gift" (the implanted code?) but her assesment is confused by Neo's reluctance or indecisiveness. As a machine she can't read through Neo's complex emotions.

Perhaps by the phrase "Your next life maybe, I don't know." She hinting that the code within Neo will have to wait for the 7th 'incarnation/version' to be what the Machines have been waiting for.

The point is, I don't think she lied she just gave her opinion based of her own inability to read Neo's special emotional make-up.

 

[cersei]

she does NOT say he is not the One

Why is everybody discussing whether Neo qualified as being The One before he died? Fact is Oracle NEVER said Neo was NOT the One.

She says, "Sorry Kiddo" in response to his opinion that "I am not the One" This does not mean she is sorry he is not the One but merely sorry he does not think he is.

"You have got the gift, but it looks like you are waiting for something"

This followup sentence also does not invalidate her opinion since she clearly admits Neo is gifted. And he is waiting for something before he will use this gift. Again she does not say Neo is NOT the One.

As for Skyron about Oracle being the programme originally used to investigate human psyche, could it be the Architect meant someone else? e.g. Persephone? She does want to invetigate Neo's passion for Trinity?

 

[skyron]

Yes a agree, the Oracle is vague enough in her statements that she is not telling or misleading Neo. I think we can lay that argument to rest. Good on ya!

However, and with all due respect my friend cersei. It's pretty obvious that the Architect is refering to the Oracle as being the "intuative program"

What I sense here is a lot of people are forgeting is that the Merovingian, the Persephone, the Ghost bros. The Keymaker and Vampires and werewolves that the Oracle speaks of, are old, flawed programs that seem reside in a partitioned part of the Matrix not he main Matrix tho accessable from the main matrix, I suppose... (otherwise, all the dinner guests in the Merovingian's restaurant would drop there forks and become agents.) I belive I was the first one to postulate that Persephone may be an earlier version of the Oracle program (ain't i clever ) but was inadiquate to the task. Persephone serves the Meroingian (who used to be a controle program) but not the Archetect any more.

And remeber too that the agents during the case scene we just as eager to attack the Ghosts as they were the human rebels. because they left the partitioned world. (Humm Agent Green was suprized to see Smith at the playground.

 

[cersei]

Ah but Skyron, you fail to convince me the Oracle is the Mother of The Matrix. I cannot say for sure Persephone or anyone else is but why the Oracle? Because Neo thinks so? The Architect says "Please" to his suggestion.....why? coz the term Oracle is demeaning/exagerrated? or perhaps Oracle is NOT the Mother?

Frankly I dont know but if I were to place a bet, I would put it on someone else being the Mother

 

[skyron]

well perhaps. I just figured he said "please" cuz he didn't want to be interupted. (he looks like the type). It's just that, dramaticaly it doesn't make sense to complicate things too much, especialy over a minor point like this. But if the mother does turn out to be Persephone or someone (thing), I'll will post a public apolgy to you and your brilliant insight:smiliea:

 

[pkgrl]

Sorry, guys, but I'm still on the fence about the Oracle being the "mother" of the Matrix, too. I felt that the Architect's "please" was dismissive in a way that was supposed to tell Neo that he was off the mark in guessing the Oracle when the Architect described the "mother" of the Matrix. (Was that too wordy?) And I liked the theory that Persephone might be that "mother" based only on that description. Guess I'm siding with cersei on this one. But it could be some other program altogether, I suppose. Or it could be the Oracle and the "please" meant something else entirely that I just missed. :crazy:

But I do like this idea:

As a machine she can't read through Neo's complex emotions.

I would suspect that there is a lot of truth in this. Even if the Oracle program were written to investigate human emotions, that doesn't mean that it understands them in any way. The fact that the Oracle can only predict the outcomes of the most likely choices seems most likely. Thus she told Neo that the "path of the One ends" at the Source, not knowing that Neo would risk losing all human life for the sake of love.

 

[SlimFace]

WOW!!!!!!

I'm afraid some of the responses to what I said earlier are based on only a part of what I said.

I said that she did lie. I backed this up by explaining that one of the definitions of lying is the following: leading someone to believe something that you know is not true. Assuming that she really knew that he was The One, the Oracle did lie!

Tabitha: I'm not refuting the idea that she should've told him what she told him. I'm just stating that she lied in the process.

Cersei: She lead him to believe that he was not The One, even though she knew he was. There's absolutely no reason to think that he wasn't The One until after his death, especially because he was exerting One-like qualities (the bullet-dodging), and because Trinity loved him before he was dead.

Skyron: Finally someone realizes why I'm saying that she lied!!!! Although I disagree with your conclusion (that the statements were vague enough for them to not be misleading), I'm glad to see that someone realizes that I was trying to say that she was lying based on the fact that she led him to believe something that isn't true.

 

[pkgrl]

It might sound like we're quibbling about semantics here, but

She lead him to believe that he was not The One

I disagree with this. She didn't lead Neo anywhere or to any conclusions. She just didn't disagree with his own assertion.

Remember, she told Neo that being the One was like being in love. "No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it, through and through, balls to bones." At that point, Morpheus "almost" had Neo convinced that he might be the One, but Neo didn't believe it himself. He didn't know that he was the One. This new self awareness is what was lacking, not any kind of confirmation that the Oracle might have provided. She knew that Neo had to discover that he was the One on his own or he'd never actually be able to take on the role successfully. He had to live through those "miracles" that were set up for him, do the "impossible" and hear Trinity's affirmation before he could truely belive it himself; before he could know himself to be the One. Therefore, the Oracle did not lie to him. She did, as Mopheus said, tell him exactly what he needed to hear; namely that Morpheus believed and that Neo would have to make the first of his most difficult choices; to save Morpheus by sacraficing himself.

Edited to add: Think of it this way. If Neo possesses that extra programming that makes him the One, even if he's had that since birth, that doesn't necessarily mean that he is utilizing it. Perhaps the program is there, but it's not running, so when the Oracle looks him over, she sees the program ("you've got the gift") but also sees that it's not running ("but it looks like you're waiting for something"). She can't just tell Neo, 'well, you're the One, so get used to it and start acting like it'; he wouldn't be able to. He has the get that program running himself. That make any sense?

'K, was that just way too much?

Did I mention that I have a bit of an obsessive personality? Maybe I should have. :blush:

 

[skyron]

PKGrl!

You have said what I was thinking.

The one quality that makes someone the One over anyone else with the 'Splinter in his mind" (implanted code wich may be placed into many candidates, I think) Are the most human of qualities... imagination, vision, faith, love and courage. All of which Neo didn't really exhibit in abundance at the first meeting with the Oracle.

Can we say that thiese are the qualities that the Machines are most interested in? That they value thiese human qualities to such a degree that they will risk the possible destruction of the Matrix to get access to them in the form of the programm disseminated into the source? all of which Neo didn't really exhibit at the first meeting with the Oracle.

And since the Oracle didn't detect said qualities in sufficient abundance (cuz she cant read humans very well, only code...???) at that point in time, in her opinion, He was not the one. If however, her thinking goes, if he makes the right decision regarding Morpheus and himself, that will be the telling evidence. And further more, perhaps the Oracle told trinity what she did because she saw that Trinity was the kind of woman that would ONLY fall in love with a super wonderfull teriffic kind of guy with the best most wonderful human qualities. (kind of like all the women I date).

so she didn't lie, she just made a decision based on the data at hand.

___________________
it's like a splinter in your mind

 

[SlimFace]

pkgrl, you brought up something that I had never thought of before. When Morpheus asks Neo, "Do you believe it now?" (= do you believe that you're The One now?), Neo responded by saying, "But the Oracle told me...." What he was going to say can only be assumed, but I think we can safely assume that he was going to say, "But the Oracle told me that I'm not The One." From this, we can infer that she did, in fact, lead him to that conclusion....a false conclusion.

Any thoughts?

 

[Jkaiyummie]

Well, the path of the One probably do end at the Source since there is still Revolutions to think of. Perhaps Neo will eventually reach the Source at the third installment.

I also have this wild notion that Smith probably will somehow absorb the Architect unto himself. hehe. hence him and Neo punching each other and they both flew from the impact. Smith probably gonna absorb even the Merovingian. but like i said, wild notion. hehe

Hmm. i was looking over at www.thematrixonline.com site and i was thinking if this is the aftermath of the three movies and the Matrix is still among us. Perhaps We are lead to believe that the machines are monsters or the bad guys. But perhaps Neo is brought about to unite the two, Humans and Machines. WHO THE H*LL KNOWS!!!! hehe. my brains is itching for the third movie. oh and i really gotta buy Animatrix soon. perhaps it would sate my hunger a lil. just a lil. damn movie can't get enough sleep.. :dead: