Other Neo's on screen is previous versions of The One?

[cersei]

Who am I to argue with the great pkgrl but I must agree to disagree. I am of the opinion that those montiors show different previous The One's (not necessarily called Neo of course) in Matrix ver 1.0, 2.0 etc. Yes it could well be different projected/postulated reactions by Neo but if you see context of the speech with Architect, you will find answer

Transcripts as below.

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Neo: You haven’t answered my question.

Architect: Quite right. Interesting, that was quicker than the others.

[Other Neos shown on wall-to-wall monitors, all protesting, “Others? What Others? How many othersâ€]
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Architect: The Matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

[More protests from the Neos shown on wall-to-wall monitors, “Liar!†“One, two, three!… Incredulous laughter… It’s not possible!... etc. â€]

Focusing on one of the Neos in one of the monitors, that Neo says:

There are only two possible explanations. Either no one told me, or no one knows
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Architect: Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

[Outraged very loud protests from the Neos in the monitors all around, “you can’t make me do…!â€, “I’m going to ******* smash you…†“Ill show you!...â€, “**** youâ€, (middle finger), “you can’t make me do anything you ******* prick!†etc.]

Focusing again on one of the Neos in one of the monitors, that Neo says:

Choice… the problem is choice.
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Neo: Bull ****! [Simultaneous cries of “Bull ****†from other Neos in monitors around the walls.]

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses, but rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it… and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
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hehe enough points made? I will view the movie once more and pay even closer attention (would fall out of my chair if I lean any further forward hehe) to this amazing exhancge of words..

 

[Tabitha]

I think the key to this scene is Neo's line:
" Choice? the problem is choice."

Which comes right after the longest outburst from the other Neos - I think it is meant to be all the choices he *could* have made at that point - the replies he could have chosen to make.

However I see two possibilities for previous "Ones" looking like Neo.

1) We are dealing with a Matrix-within-a-Matrix. Neo is a control program, not a real human, and therefore it is plausible that all previous Anomalies looked the same.

2) There is only one level of the Matrix, and Zion is in the real real world. He is human, and therefore the possibility that there were six people before him that looked exactly the same is extremely unlikely.


Another reason I have for thinking that the other neos on the screen reflect other possible choices, rather than previous Ones is when the Architect says the following:
" Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses, but rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it? and we have become exceedingly efficient at it."

I have highlighted "Predictable", because I think it is very important in this context - it fits well with the concept of freedom of choice. Neo's status as an anomaly makes him more unpredictable that most - and he represents all those who have chosen freedom. The Architect is displaying all the responses he could have made - but can't know which one will actual be spoken until it happens. This is echoed in his surprise that Neo catches on to the facts pretty quickly.



Of course that is simply my interpretation, feel free to disagree.
I think this scene was made intentionally vague, and that for much of this movie there is no way to deduce, for sure, exactly what is going on, because we don't know the rules. Are we watching a Matrix-within-a-Matrix? Is this the real world? How much of what Morpheus told neo in the first film is accurate?

 

[skyron]

reincarnation?

gee you both make such good points. I think however that the 'TV Neos' are indeed previous "Ones" it seemed to me that they all react slightly diferently to what the Archetect says. i would have been more obvious if they looked differently but then the audience would be confused (even more).

"The Matix" story quotes and referes to just about every major religion on earth so whu not Hindu/ buddist? Neo/The One has been reincarnated 5 times. Why five? the Five books of Moses perhaps? I.E. the Old Testement. Neo (Anderson) is the 6th that is, the new testiment. the Christ. As the Architect states, Neo is the first "one" who is motivated by love. More than the others. in that context the notion of 5 previous incarnations of Neo/One being on the screens (and placed behind Neo) just makes good cinimatic and dramatic sence.

 

[Dave]

If Neo ver 6.0 is a computer program then I can accept that he looks the same in all 5 earlier versions.

But, if Neo is Human (which I still personally believe until I've watched 'Matrix Revolutions' and seen more evidence to the contrary) then I cannot see how each version of the 'One' could appear (even if they were re-incarnations of the same spirit) with an identical genetic make-up after the new Matrix had been running randomly for some 100 years (unless he was seeded into it deliberately!)

I still think that the monitors were not showing different versions of the 'One', but simply different choices that Neo could make.

 

[pkgrl]

First,

Originally posted by cersei
Choice… the problem is choice.
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Neo: Bull ****! [Simultaneous cries of “Bull ****†from other Neos in monitors around the walls.]

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses, but rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it… and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

There's something missing just before the Architect's last line here. Neo said, "Zion. This is all about Zion." That's what the machines were "exceedingly efficient" at destroying... not choice, like the quote above implies.

Originally posted by Tabitha
I think the key to this scene is Neo's line:
" Choice? the problem is choice."

Which comes right after the longest outburst from the other Neos - I think it is meant to be all the choices he *could* have made at that point - the replies he could have chosen to make.

...The Architect is displaying all the responses he could have made - but can't know which one will actual be spoken until it happens. This is echoed in his surprise that Neo catches on to the facts pretty quickly.

I agree with this (duh ) Even if Neo is a program and not a human (even though the Architect said he is "irretrievably human"), he/it still has choices. We're pretty much beaten over the head with that throughout the movie. He's made his choices, but he doesn't understand them yet. I think the screens simply represent the possible choices of responses he might have made.

Edited to add:
Oh yeah!

Originally posted by skyron
"The Matix" story quotes and referes to just about every major religion on earth so whu not Hindu/ buddist? Neo/The One has been reincarnated 5 times. Why five? the Five books of Moses perhaps? I.E. the Old Testement. Neo (Anderson) is the 6th that is, the new testiment. the Christ. As the Architect states, Neo is the first "one" who is motivated by love. More than the others.

Wow! Didn't know about that. But it fits in with the mythology/religion we already know in the Matrix films. Thanks for the extra insight!

 

[skyron]

You know, I never entertained the notion that Neo was a program. Im convinced of his humanity but, it just occured to me now, that Neo is not a program but he has had a program inserted into him. the reincarnated bit of code from the last 5 matricies. (matixes?) .

Oh yeah... it so clear to me now! The Architech says that "The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you cary, reinserting the prime program." this code is "The Splinter in (his) mind" that Morpheus mentions in the first film

Don't cha see? The code gets implanted into a sutable host in one of the "pod people" someone who in early life exhibits the proper "sh*t disturbing" characteristics who will make good use of the scrap of code that makes him The One. This code is an enabling sub routine. This code is the thing that is reincarnated and becomes closer to perfection with each incarnation. By returning it to the source, the machine can then use it to get better insight into humanity and hopefully, use it themselvs to improve the Matrix or even to become more perfect machines which, to these machines, amounts to the same thing.

So it would seem to me that each of the five previous Ones were not Neo but were other humans who carried earlier versions of the code.

That they look like Neo on the screens is, like I said before just a dramatic necessity... Like Scott Bakula looking like Scott Bakula even tho he is a Chinese cocktail waitress in 1942 in the show "Quantum Leap"... :rolly2:

 

[cersei]

I retract what i have said....

My Dearest Pkgrl, I am so very sorry for my original idea of Neo being the same one in each Matrix version and hence monitors show previous versions....

well, after watching it again, I am wrong.

The monitors show what different reactions theorised for Neo to what the Architect says. Why it is now clear to me seems so obvious I feel so silly

let me say again. I AM SORRY PKGRL sorry sorry sorry.

 

[pkgrl]

No need to be sorry, really. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and you even said that you read elsewhere that others believed all those Neo's were other One's too.

You're really big to see the film again with an open mind though.

I hate it when I finally see what others have seen then realize how "obvious" it was to them all along. Makes me feel stupid, but it's really easy to be duped... either by the filmmakers, other fans, or our own perception.

Perception is the key. It's probably what's keeping me from being able to form opinions about other aspects of the film that seem obvious to the rest of you. Especially stuff about the programs. So many of you guys have more experience with computers, programs, and machine logic than I do that I simply do not see what you see. :crazy:

So, is Neo a program, or is he simply carrying one? I think that's the next big question.

 

[DS:Reloaded]

Unless we assume the Quantum Leap premis is in place, other Neo's on screens couldn't possibly be other "One's".
If they were "the One's 1-5", then why in the 1st part they had a bunch of "potentials" in Oracles appartment ?
If all "One's" looked alike then all they had to look for is guy looking like Keanu Reeves and not bother with all those other kids.

agree about inserted code, makes sense, assuming Oracle also sees everything as code (like Neo) bet that's what she was looking for looking into Neo's mouth, ears funny though

 

[skyron]

How about this? The TV Neo's are the previous "Ones" but since thay are a replay of the "achived files" read from Neo's impanted code, they carry Neo's "cookies": His residual self image has imprinted on the extracted data... just as an uploaded file from my computer would have different info data attached to it than the identical file uploaded from your computer...

Does that make sence?



:erm: :erm:

 

[andernout]

on a side note...its interesting to go back to the original, when the agents first interagate mr. anderson...right before you enter that room, you can see it on a whole whack of little monitors...could that have been the architects room, watching in on it??

curious....

 

[Tabitha]

Skyron, that doesn't just make sense, it's a stroke of frickin' genius!!!!





.....

 

[skyron]

Thanx Tabitha.
I do have my moments. Flashes of insight that shine through the murk of my clouded logic.

:nuts:

 

[Jkaiyummie]

Hello, its my first here to post but I do read lots of your opinions and its really amazing how this story can spawn a lot of fascinating thoughts. Well as for my own opinion...
I agree with skyron on his post:

( The Architech says that "The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you cary, reinserting the prime program." this code is "The Splinter in (his) mind" that Morpheus mentions in the first film

Don't cha see? The code gets implanted into a sutable host in one of the "pod people" someone who in early life exhibits the proper "sh*t disturbing" characteristics who will make good use of the scrap of code that makes him The One. This code is an enabling sub routine. This code is the thing that is reincarnated and becomes closer to perfection with each incarnation. By returning it to the source, the machine can then use it to get better insight into humanity and hopefully, use it themselvs to improve the Matrix or even to become more perfect machines which, to these machines, amounts to the same thing.

So it would seem to me that each of the five previous Ones were not Neo but were other humans who carried earlier versions of the code. )

But I would like to add something else also. I've been reading lots of post about the Oracle, the Architect and the Merovingian. But how bout the most sinister and most strangest of them all. Agent Smith?

Remember when Agent Smith met up with Neo once again and explain to him he is now free. And yet at the same time He's not free. I think when Neo destroyed or went inside Smith on the first movie Neo somehow 'inserted' that 'Splinter' program into Smith and hence Smith's new abilities as well as 'freedom'. Smith says that he now understands much more of whats happening.

Another note, I think what the Architect is refering to crashing is what is happening to Smith as Smith is able to duplicate himself by able to copy himself to 'software' , ergo, the humans that connects to the Matrix. Yes, even the freed humans like Neo, Morpheus and, the most perfect example, that guy in that other ship. (forgot his name) Smith is the evil that the Machines seems to avoid. Well, I got this after watching the whole ending credits and finally watching the preview for Revolutions. Neo and Smith facing each other in the rain and flanked by millions of Smiths on the side. Neo says something like 'it ends tonight' and Smith like 'We've been waiting for you'.

Perhaps this is the true purpose of Neo. To save the humans AND machines and make them live together side by side by understanding one another. Hence the Oracle saying 'making a believer out of me'. She believes Neo can pull it off. Well just a thought.

 

[cersei]

Good thoughts Jkaiyummie

Nice thoughts (and am I too new myself to welcome you to this board? hehe, welcome anyway) Jkaiyummie

Upon my realisation those Neo's are indeed different projections of possible permutations in reactions predicted (ok way too many words there ), each The One is represented by a different person. Are they all human? or merely a programme made by machines to further evaluate humans and also as a system reset?

I used to be leaning towards Neo being a programme but am now leaning the other way towards him being human. Thanks to pkgrl and a very good article examining Reloaded from Gnostic Philosophy view point (and Asimov's Rule of Robotics! check it out at www.corporatemofo.com but be warned if it possibly reveals more than you expected). For the concept of Free Will and Choice as detailed there to matter, Neo has to be Human.

What about Smith then? The reason there are not as many theories about him is because we truly don't know. Again that site explains (to me anyway) why despite being "freed" of the system, he continues to pursue Neo (even into the "real world")...because as he says himself, "It is Purpose that defines us"...because a Machine/Programme has no free will and only lives by its purpose...which is to hunt down and destroy the rebels particularly Neo in Smith's case. Despite being free, he cannot help but complete his purpose...possibly to detrimental of both humans AND machine (since he threatens the entire system)

So, the final fight is between Neo and Smith so that Humans and Machines can live together or come to a compromise? I suspect so since as listed elsewhere in this forum, any other ending would be difficult to pull off (ie Machines win? = "sad" ending or Humans win? = how the heck to unplug everyone?)

 

[skyron]

yes that makes some sencse.

In an other post, I refer to a theme in "reloaded" that machines just do what they are supposed to do. The just follow the intent of the programer. Agents are programs with the the job of hunting down those that may do harm to the matrix and to gather intelligence on Zion.
The machines, as a trade off for allowing the 'necessity of incorporating choice into the matrix are willing to let the1% of anomalous human dissidents leave to the real world. But over the course of a few generations, each Zion begins to threaten the very foundations of the Matrix and the machines cannot tolerate that because of (i belive) the fear that this will endanger the human life in the "batery farms" that the machines are in a very real way bound by thier seminal programing, obligated to preserve. ( in other words the unlimate purpose of the machines is the preservation of there human creators.)

So yes you may have something there, Jkaiyummie. Agent Smith said as much that Neo imparted some code onto him when they last faught. but...
A/ Smith can't understand how to deal with the scrap of humanity (choice) he has been given and
B/ still feels obligated to carry out his original programing. Just before the "Burly Brawl" Smith speaks about being greatful to Neo for setting him free but not having a pupose makes an existance worth nothing. His purpose is still kicking dissident butt.

So now smith is free to pass from the Matrix into the the "Back Door" level where he wasn't supposed to go and even into the real world through "whatshisname"...In a sense, he is a threat to Humanity AND the Machine world because he is the ultimate rogue program; the ultimate self replicating virus with no understanding of the true intent of the Archetect's master plan that of preserving humanity.

 

[cersei]

Psst, his name is Bane

"His purpose is still kicking dissident butt" I like that line

 

[pkgrl]

I'm so stoked that new people keep showing up here! Hi, Jkaiyummie! :wave:

Edited to add: Just found the article cersei mentioned. Here's the actual url: http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm Great article, btw.

Originally posted by andernout
...its interesting to go back to the original, when the agents first interagate mr. anderson...right before you enter that room, you can see it on a whole whack of little monitors...could that have been the architects room, watching in on it??

Good point. I'll have to check it out again with that in mind.

Originally posted by Jkaiyummie
Smith is the evil that the Machines seems to avoid. Well, I got this after watching the whole ending credits and finally watching the preview for Revolutions. Neo and Smith facing each other in the rain and flanked by millions of Smiths on the side. Neo says something like 'it ends tonight' and Smith like 'We've been waiting for you'.

Perhaps this is the true purpose of Neo. To save the humans AND machines and make them live together side by side by understanding one another. Hence the Oracle saying 'making a believer out of me'. She believes Neo can pull it off. Well just a thought.

Exactly! And good on ya for combining theories into a coherant "I think when Neo destroyed or went inside Smith on the first movie Neo somehow 'inserted' that 'Splinter' program into Smith and hence Smith's new abilities as well as 'freedom'."

I think Smith is getting a taste of what it feels like to be human... even if Bane's "real world" body is inside another level of the Matrix. That's why he cuts his hand... he's facinated by the new sensation of pain... which the Bane "program" feels, but he never has before.

Originally posted by skyron
So now smith is free to pass from the Matrix into the the "Back Door" level where he wasn't supposed to go...

Yeah, I wondered about that. Why weren't there any agents there? This totally explains it though.

Cersei, you're never too new to welcome newbies! And thanks for the link. I'll go check it out.

I don't buy the Asimov robotics angle, though. I don't think the machines are trying to preserve human life because they have to, but only because, as Neo said, "We need machines and they need us." The machines simply need humans, and what they have now is a controlled population of them... the "meat computer" that was mentioned earlier. :crazy:

 

[Rush]

Another first time poster here. I have found many of the thoughts in this thread interesting to say the least. Several references have been made to the splinter in neo's mind. I had an interesting thought. This splinter makes neo different. He cannot accept the rules that normal people are bound by. Therefore he can bend and break many rules. Smith being a program is inherently going to be bound by rules as is the basis for all programs. When neo "killed" smith in the first one i believe that neo passed aling the "splinter" to smith which explains why smith is now able to break the rules common to all users of the matrix. He may still be a program but he is now not bound by the common rules of the matrix. I think of the matrix itself as an operating system wherein is layed the foundation for all other programs to run. Smith now splintered no longer is bound to this o/s and its rules.
And as for the screens in the architects room i believe that neo is the only neo, those images on the screen may be what the matrix expects neo to do. As per the architects line that "denial is the most predictable of human reactions". The matrix may be playing out all the possible outcomes of what neo is thinking. But as we all know neo is not a stickler for the rules and does what they do not expect. He does not take the utilitarian stance and do what is needed for his country but does for himself and trinity. but anyway i hope my ramblings make sense.

 

[pkgrl]

You made perfect sense, Rush, and welcome aboard! :wave:

But I think the rules of the Matrix do still apply to Smith, or he'd be able to fly like Neo. Neo'd never be able to get away from him/them. And I think that the metaphor of the "splinter in your mind" applies to everyone who has "left" the Matrix... including Cypher, Trinity, and Morpheus. I think the only thing that makes Neo different from the other rebels is that he's "the One." What exactly caused this, I don't know. It could be a computer program that was applied to him as a baby or child, or something genetic, I still don't know. I'm not sure we'll ever be told, either, because faith is still a very important theme in these films.

I do think that the screens of other "Neos" are all representations of our Neo, though. Whether they are his possible reactions or what the Architect thinks Neo's reactions might be is still unclear.

I do like that there is apparently only one answer to the assertion that "Zion is about to be destroyed..." "Bullsh*t!"