Daniel was a total loser in this episode!

[Goob'r55]

From the get-go, from the very second that old Danny-boy learns that Thor's Hammer has the potential to save his beloved wife....that's all he obsesses about.

But for a brief moment in time when Daniel remembers that Jack and Teal'c even existed, the man's only focus the entire time he is interacting with Kendra is to ask about how she was freed ---and how Sha're could be helped....and on and on and on.

Only Sam had any concerns about Jack and Teal'c. Only she kept the pressure up to move things along, find the cave.

And then, when finally the trio does get to the cave -- and even after seeing what Jack and Teal'c had just been through....what's the only thing Daniel has to say??????

He springs in to tell Jack how Thor's Hammer can save Sha're! Never mind about Teal'c! SHEESH!

And when Jack points out the obvious....it's pretty clear that Daniel isn't onboard with the idea. In fact, when Jack instructs him to destroy the device -- you can tell Daniel, if he REALLY had an honest, free choice, would not have done so.

Because clearly, he had no choice in the matter. If Daniel had failed to pull the trigger, Jack would have come out and done the job, and Daniel would have risked his anger and scourn. Daniel can not deal with losing Jack's approval or friendship.

It is also pretty clear, when Teal'c steps through and thanks Daniel....that the "really-doesn't-walk-on-water Archeologist" is still thinking about only one thing...Why Did It have To End This Way????

Once again, Daniel has failed to measure up to my standards of what constitutes a real hero.


Now Jack, on the other hand.....what a guy! Stood by Teal'c every inch of the way! Just gotta love him!!

:kisses:

 

[PTeppic]

I'm guessing you're not married and don't have kids? Even ignoring the masses of fiction on the subject, just look in any newspaper to find the stories of utter stupidity/bravery that parents will do to save their kids or husbands/wives for each other in situations of danger. At this point in the series Daniel is perhaps two-three months separated from Sha're, and his main reason for being on the team is to find her and get her home. Daniel ISN'T a hero, per se, he's an archaeologist who just got separated from his wife.

 

[Hatshepsut]

I think it should be borne in mind that Teal'c was the one who selected Daniel's wife to be Ammonet's host.

Clearly, Daniel's first impulse, not to mention his obligation, is to save her from a fate worse than death. Don't forget too, that he's known Sha're a lot longer than he's known Jack.

Personally, I think Jack gives Daniel a really gut-wrenching choice - either leave the hammer intact so he can save Sha're, or destroy it - and Sha're's chance of freedom - to save Teal'c. (Jack, of course, could leave at any time.)

That Daniel chooses to save Teal'c shows real nobility of spirit, and that's what makes him a hero.

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
--

 

[Goob'r55]

I still maintain that: Daniel had no idea if he would ever find Sha're- so what was the choice?

Second, the entire time they were seeking out the cave -- Daniel's only obligations was to the safety of Jack and Teal'c- as a member of the SG1 Team.

If the situation had been reversed-- if Daniel had been trapped inside some type of cavern and the responsibility to find him had been left with Teal'c, however-- along the way, Teal'c learned that there was a way to bring his son or wife to safety -- would Daniel fans have accepted that Teal'c take the time to side track from rescuing Daniel to do so? Despite what consequences awaited Daniel in the cavern? Even death?

I think not.

I think there would be about 500 fan fiction stories attesting to the fact that Teal'c would have been dragged over the proverbial coals for endangering poor Daniel's life.

Or, If Jack was given the job of rescuing Daniel from the cavern -- but along the way was given the chance to spend time with Charlie -- and couldn't help but take that time, because after all, he's just a poor, heart-broken, lonesome dad, would that haven been okay too?

Not likely. Again, we would have about 200 fan fiction stories out there with Jack groveling at Daniel's heels for forgiveness, as Daniel recovers in the Infirmary from near-death injuries sustained in the caverns because of Jack's selfish, ineptitude.

So you see, it's all really how one sees either side of the coin.

It seems, in this world of Stargate -- that if somebody is a Daniel-lover/ worshiper, he can do no imaginable wrong.

On the other hand, the other members of the SG1 can do no imaginable right -- and derserve whatever fate King Daniel thinks/decides should befall them.

Doesn't that just make Daniel one of the False Gods that SG1 is out there trying to Battle? Come to think of it....aren't there a few Episodes in which Daniel does come to think of himself as a god? Golly----- now there's fodder for conversation.

:rolly2:

 

[Hatshepsut]

Originally posted by Goob'r55
I still maintain that: Daniel had no idea if he would ever find Sha're- so what was the choice?

When you love someone, you don't ever give up until you are 100% certain that that loved one is dead. Even 99% certain is not enough.

Second, the entire time they were seeking out the cave -- Daniel's only obligations was to the safety of Jack and Teal'c- as a member of the SG1 Team.

One of his obligations certainly, but not his only one. His primary obligation is to his wife, which he had already stated.

If the situation had been reversed-- if Daniel had been trapped inside some type of cavern and the responsibility to find him had been left with Teal'c, however-- along the way, Teal'c learned that there was a way to bring his son or wife to safety -- would Daniel fans have accepted that Teal'c take the time to side track from rescuing Daniel to do so? Despite what consequences awaited Daniel in the cavern? Even death?

a) What have 'Daniel's fans' - something of a blanket term for a wide variety of people - got to do with anything?

b) Have you seen 'Scorched Earth' yet?

c) Good example of sophistry there.

I think not.

Well, everyone's entitled to his opinion...

I think there would be about 500 fan fiction stories attesting to the fact that Teal'c would have been dragged over the proverbial coals for endangering poor Daniel's life.

Really? Care to name some? They've passed me by.

Or, If Jack was given the job of rescuing Daniel from the cavern -- but along the way was given the chance to spend time with Charlie -- and couldn't help but take that time, because after all, he's just a poor, heart-broken, lonesome dad, would that haven been okay too?

Depends how well it's written and how plausible the plot is - which, incidentally, the plot for 'Fallen' isn't.

Not likely. Again, we would have about 200 fan fiction stories out there with Jack groveling at Daniel's heels for forgiveness, as Daniel recovers in the Infirmary from near-death injuries sustained in the caverns because of Jack's selfish, ineptitude.

Eh? What have you been reading?

It seems, in this world of Stargate -- that if somebody is a Daniel-lover/ worshiper, he can do no imaginable wrong.

Um, what leads you to that conclusion? Come to that, how do you define a "Daniel-lover/ worshiper"?

On the other hand, the other members of the SG1 can do no imaginable right -- and derserve whatever fate King Daniel thinks/decides should befall them.

Huh? "King Daniel"? Where did that come from?

Doesn't that just make Daniel one of the False Gods that SG1 is out there trying to Battle? Come to think of it....aren't there a few Episodes in which Daniel does come to think of himself as a god? Golly----- now there's fodder for conversation.

Nope, that's a definite conversation stopper. :disturbed

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
--

 

[Goob'r55]

So, you mean you would never discuss the episode in which Daniel lets Jack, Teal and Sam rot in the caves as labor slaves while he makes time with the Princess and becomes Superman, in NEED?

How come?

And what I define as a Daniel-aholic is somebody who sees the show only revolving around him. Somebody, who on their site, has post something like: Stagte exist only because of Daniel.....yada,yada,yada. Sorry-- not true in the least. I define the classification of Daniel-aholic fan fic writers as that group who, despite the episode involved, can write fan fiction and make the story focused on Daniel....even if the show wasn't even about him. I mean, come on, after a while, your basic reader, who just enjoys the show because one likes ALL of the characters, becomes discouraged and annoyed going to the Stargate sites looking for good stories only to repeatedly come across relentless repeats of the same old Daniel themes.

One example of this is the Replicator one, in which Jack and Teal'c have to go aborad the SUB to fight off those things, yet -- on one site alone - there is like, one single story relating to how Jack and Teal'c felt about the experience and maybe 8 stories about how Daniel felt. **Yawn**

And, sorry-- but in my books, if Daniel only joined SG1 to hunt for his wife -- and he placed THAT desire above even the safety of his fellow SG1 members -- as demonstrated in Thor's Hammer -- then what kind of person is he?

Would you trust him to have your back, in a dangerous situation? And why do the fan fic writers have Daniel being so angry and disgusted in some of their stories that Jack handed him the Staff weapon as a test? Why wouldn't he, under the circumstances? When would Daniel ever really be able to prove himself trustworthy, given his attitudes?

In my obviously not-so-popular opinion, at least in the early Seasons of the show, Daniel behaves like an arrested adolescent - and Jack and the others are way to tolerant of him.

 

[captaincarter]

Gobb'r I have to agree with you on this one, he should be more worried about getting Jack and Teal'c back, then bothering with it saving his wif, who is probabl hpolessly lost forever and he has no clue where she is

 

[Lizzi]

I have to disagree. Jack should have been court-martialed for destroying the hammer. Earth is under threat by the goa'uld. SG1 discovers a goa'uld killing weapon, (one that leaves the host alive as a bonus). So what does Jack do? He has it destroyed.


Teal'c was in no danger, they could have brought him some supplies while a team of scientists figured out how the hammer worked.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Lizzi
Earth is under threat by the goa'uld.

That would be difficult to quantify - they had only been under direct attack once by this time, after the COTG incident. By the time of "Thors Chariot" they had been under more direct attack, but at this point it would be difficult to say that his decision endangered Earth, since the Goa'uld knew about the Hammer and generally avoided the planet.

Following your point to another direction, he could be charged with recklessly endangering the Cimmerian population, on the same basis, but hey, they're aliens, even if human-based ones....

 

[Hatshepsut]

Originally posted by Goob'r55
So, you mean you would never discuss the episode in which Daniel lets Jack, Teal and Sam rot in the caves as labor slaves while he makes time with the Princess and becomes Superman, in NEED?

I will discuss 'Need' till the cows come home. It's one of my favourite episodes.

You seem to have missed the point of that ep. As Sam said, accessing information from Jolinar, using the sarcophagus when you're already fit and well steals your soul and is addictive in much the same way as heroin. (So Jack using the sarcophagus in 'Abyss', should have been in no danger of this as it was being used correctly to repair damage - but I digress).

Daniel was cured by the sarcophagus in the first instance, and was pushing hard to get Jack, Sam and Teal'c released. To this end, he went along with Shyla's suggestion that he use the sarcophagus again - and again - unaware of its addictive and soul stealing properties until he was hooked and unable function rationally.

As regards 'making time' with Shyla, she was the one who was pulling his strings, not the other way around.

And 'Superman'? No. His judgement might have been warped sufficiently by sarcophagus misuse to let him feel like he was Superman, in much the same way that people using L.S.D. in the '60s (when it was legal) jumped from high buildings in the belief that they could fly, but he was no more Superman than they were.

And what I define as a Daniel-aholic is somebody who sees the show only revolving around him. Somebody, who on their site, has post something like: Stagte exist only because of Daniel.....yada,yada,yada. Sorry-- not true in the least.

Well, I don't know any 'Daniel-aholic's then. All the Daniel fans I know love Daniel as an equal member of the team, and don't like him being relegated to being a part of the scenery. They feel the same way about Teal'c too.

As regards "Stagte exist only because of Daniel" (sic), it is certainly true that the Stargate existed thousands of years before Daniel was born, but it is also true to say that, as it was Daniel whose intuitive genius worked out how to make the Stargate work, the Stargate Programme only came into existence because of him.

I define the classification of Daniel-aholic fan fic writers as that group who, despite the episode involved, can write fan fiction and make the story focused on Daniel....even if the show wasn't even about him. I mean, come on, after a while, your basic reader, who just enjoys the show because one likes ALL of the characters, becomes discouraged and annoyed going to the Stargate sites looking for good stories only to repeatedly come across relentless repeats of the same old Daniel themes.

Exactly the same accusation could be made about 'shippers. I don't like to see a mature, intelligent, dedicated, professional theoretical astrophysicist and commissioned U.S.A.F. officer who just happens to be a beautiful woman reduced to the role of an adolescent groupie. Nor do I like to see a mature (usually ) highly self-disciplined ex-special ops. colonel suddenly become prey to a surfeit of testosterone, ignore his oath to the U.S.A.F., and ride rough-shod over A.F.I 36-2909 - you know, the one referring to unprofessional conduct?

Now I'm quite happy for these teenage angst romances to be out there in fic-land (but please! not on my T.V. screen!) so that those who like that sort of thing can read them if they so choose. Happily, there are thousands of fics out there which centre on The Team, so I don't have to read the 'shippy ones.

And, sorry-- but in my books, if Daniel only joined SG1 to hunt for his wife -- and he placed THAT desire above even the safety of his fellow SG1 members -- as demonstrated in Thor's Hammer -- then what kind of person is he?

Did you actually watch 'Thor's Hammer'? To the end? Daniel sacrificed the future possibility of freeing Sha're from Ammonet in order to set Teal'c free in the here and now, i.e. he placed the safety of his fellow S.G.-1 team members above his own personal quest. That takes great magnanimity and nobility of spirit.

Would you trust him to have your back, in a dangerous situation?

Certainly! He might not have the same military expertise as the rest, but when it comes to sacrificing his life for others, he is without peer. He's unarguably the most experienced!

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
--

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Hatshepsut
So Jack using the sarcophagus in 'Abyss', should have been in no danger of this as it was being used correctly to repair damage - but I digress)

Actually, as Daniel pointed out, Jack was losing his soul, albeit perhaps slower than if the sarcophagus was being used on a healthy person...

 

[Hatshepsut]

Originally posted by PTeppic
Actually, as Daniel pointed out, Jack was losing his soul, albeit perhaps slower than if the sarcophagus was being used on a healthy person...

Ahh, the re-writing of canon - yet again...

'Fragile Balance' just aired here in which we learn that Jack has changed his real name from Jonathan to John and that he was born five years earlier than he was in 'Brief Candle', but heck, that was series 1 so obviously that doesn't count.

Yeah, right. :dead:

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut - who wishes T.P.T.B. would employ a beta-reader like fic. writers do.
--

 

[RoyalMcPoyal]

I realize I am years late to the party on this one, but I am currently rewatching the show and found this thread interesting. I didn't see finding Jack and Teal'c and finding the hammer as mutually exclusive. What I got from the story was that Daniel was mindful of the situation, but also trying to find a fix for his problem as well. Personally I don't see him being conflicted about destroying the hammer as a sign of him not being a heroic or weak. His whole mission is to find and heal his wife. He had just found the way to heal his wife and was completely revitalized by it. Then, realizing the life in front of him was more important, he decided to save his friend. Imagine having your SO being afflicted with horrible cancer and also being lost in the jungle. You have found the cure for their cancer on your search for them, but have to destroy it to save the group looking for them. I did also find the fact that the writers had Jack order Daniel shoot it instead of doing it himself or having Sam do it interesting. it is almost a forced compliance to the mission and if Daniel were in the airforce I would have understood it more.

Cheers