foreshadowing

[Spudnik]

i know of only one example so far:

the subway scene. neo and smith empty each other's guns, then smash each other on the tracks.

side note: need to watch it again to watch for "loop"

side note 2: neo defeated smith the first time, and lived to tell it, if only for a moment. (he dies real soon after). revolutions spoilers:

Spoiler

neo is defeated in the big fight between smith and neo at the end of revolutions, and smith lives to tell it. if only for a moment. the only difference i find is the end of smith is the end of neo, so really neo had the victory 2-1.

 

[pkgrl]

Yeah, but while Smith looked like he was about to win in the Subway scene, Neo was able to surprise him and get the "win," even though Smith could just 'jump' into another avatar and continue the fight. And yeah, Neo's win lasted only until the hotel, but he was able to surprise Smith again and destroy him in that same hallway, earning him a second "win." This is the one that counted, since Neo was able to go on to fight another day.

Revolutions spoilers:

Spoiler

But Neo went into this "final" fight knowing that he'd have to sacrifice himself to Smith in order for the machines to ultimately win. The machines were the only ones who could take Smith back into the source and return the matrix to normal, with Neo's help, of course. Knowing this, I can't think of this as a loss for Neo. There is a kind of role reversal, there, but then they always were two sides of the same matrix coin, weren't they?

 

[Spudnik]

actually you knw the first time neo "died", he set smith free.

REvolutions spoiler:

Spoiler

the second time neo "died", he destroyed himself and smith.

so maybe its more 2-0, than 1-1.

 

[pkgrl]

Added spoiler box to your last post

Hope you don't mind, but in General Discussions, we need to watch the spoilers carefully.

Originally posted by Spudnik
actually you knw the first time neo "died", he set smith free.

REvolutions spoiler:

Spoiler

the second time neo "died", he destroyed himself and smith.

so maybe its more 2-0, than 1-1.

But the first time Neo died, he was resurrected and killed Smith. So even if Smith was "freed" (and remember in Reloaded he said, "We're here because we're NOT free") at that time, I would't call it a "win" for him. No, I don't think Smith ever won a fight with Neo. Not really. He only thought Neo was dead at the end of The Matrix for a couple minutes, and was destroyed for his pride. And Neo may have fled from the Burly Brawl, but Smith still didn't achieve what he wanted, which was to be able to overwrite Neo... to kill him... make him cease to be Neo and make him another Smith instead.
Revolutions spoiler:

Spoiler

Even as Bane, he lost the battle. Not just because Neo killed Bane, Bane did manage to blind Neo, but in that blinding he actually helped Neo to do his job better. Without human eyes, he had to see with something else. And what he saw he thought was beautiful, helping him with his decision to aid the machines (and Zion) by stopping Smith. And his last battle with Smith was designed, I believe, to allow Smith to overwrite Neo, so whatever was left of Neo could allow the Source to take him... and Smith.

So I don't think that Smith ever wins, since he's never been able to achieve his goal where Neo is concerned.