5.07: Lineage

[Highlander II]

{This thread is for the discussion of this episode only. No spoilers for upcoming episodes may be discussed.}



Fred's been shot and the Head boy gets a visit from dear old Dad. Robots are beating up Angel and the gang and Spike gets caught in the elevator with Eve - eww. Feelin' sorry for Spike...

 

[Highlander II]

Aside from the fact that I have to put up with cruddy reception of hte WB on my local cable network - meaning I missed everything before the credits except that Fred was wounded and when she came on I thought she was Connor for a minute b/c I could only see her nose and that was choppy -- grrr argh --

Anyway - so, Wes' dad shows up -- okay - raise your hands, how many of you knew he was the 'baddy' in the ep when he showed? *raises hand* I *knew* he was gonna be trouble!

Spike was funny - well, to a point. His 'report' about Wes was stupid. Why'd they do that? Spike does *not* act like that! Petulant child though he may be at times, he does *not* say stuff like that - who are these people and why did they not consult the current gods of Spike writing Mr. Joss Whedon and Mr. Steven S. DeKnight?? Make Spike act like Spike please!

Spike's scene in the elevator was in character though - so someone paid attention for *that* scene. But the **** in Angel's office? What was that? Aside from wrong?

Where was I?

Oh yeah - great story! I really enjoyed this ep - aside from the weird WB signal issues - it was very well done. The whole Wes vs. his Father thing - both literally and figuratively -- very interesting dynamic - esp w/ the phone call at the end - and nothing's changed.

And poor Marlboro Man - still trying to get Fred and still get smacked down - not as hard this time. He kinda 'let' her go --

Ooh - funny stuff:

Spike leaving Eve in the elevator! I nearly fell in the floor!
Spike freaking out when the lights went out!
Spike concentrating to punch that robot off Gunn!
Wes' dad telling Spike that they'd already met - Spike was terrorizing an orphanage in Vienna (?) and killed 2 Watchers - Spike seemed to confirm this, so I'm takin' it as truth

Good Stuff:

Spike jumping in to help Gunn!
Wes throwing that sword at that robot! Go Wes!
Wes shooting his 'father' to save Fred - we already knew where Wes' loyalties were - now Fred does too.

This was a really good epsiode. Very happy!

 

[bibliosylph]

i loved this episode. i've been reading around the net, and it seems many did, many did not. i'm actually trying to find correlations between enjoyment of various episodes by various people, but, anyway.

i've thought all week about what they say was less than great about it and i just can't be swayed. it was tight, quick-moving, emotional but not too much, good group interaction, Lorne said two of the funniest things i've ever heard on that show, and Wes was totally, totally hot.

i thought the twin gun scene was too derivative, but still lots of fun. i was annoyed that Wes got chopped up by Fred when all he was doing was what Angel asked. but maybe there was a purpose in that. and i had questions about the Dadbot. but none of that interfered with the night for me.

 

[Highlander II]

I really liked it at the end when Fred was talking to Wes and she said something about 'he was threatening your friends' and Wes counted with: "He was threatening *you*." C'mon Fred, you've *got* to understand now! The man is so in love with you that it hurts. He killed his *dad* for you, girl! (Wes really thought it was his dad - he said so. So it counts) Fred needs to open up her eyes -- LA's not on the Hellmouth - does that mean that someone can have a decent relationship??


Oh man - you know what I just remembered? Remember in the ep "Magic Bullet" when Fred kissed Angel and he was kinda 'confused but happy' about it - like he thought Fred was into him -- now Fred doesn't remember that b/c of the mind wipe thing ---- that was a good scene too.

 

[bibliosylph]

i sure wish to know what they do remember. i loved that scene. remember when she first appeared, how it looked like it could happen, but then she was the Wes and Cordy was the Gunn, for a little while?

i love how Wesley loved her in that ep, and a few times earlier. and it's where the actor shows his skill, because the looks are often so subtle. but then, the second Dadbot grabbed her? blam.

 

[Highlander II]

AD is quite talented.

Something you don't realize until you go back and watch S3 of BtVS, then come back and watch him on AtS. He is amazing. He and JM have similar talents. I think the two could switch roles and pull them off nicely (maybe not perfectly, but I think they could pull them off very well) -- oooh - there's a really cool idea! Not so sure it would be as cool in fic as it would on screen - b/c I would *love* to see AD act like Spike and JM act like Wes! - but it would be really cool!

Man, where did *that* tangent come from?

Anyway - I didn't pay that much attention to Wes in S3 of BtVS - he was so goofy and kind of a pain - much like a petulant child - and almost annoying. But now, I go back and watch those same episodes - and he's almost endearing. He's still annoying and petulant child-like, but I see it from a different perspective. I've done similar things with other characters - some positive change in opinion, some not so positive (my thoughts on Buffy, for example) -- but it's all in how you view something and what you're looking for. Bumbling, insecure Wes is fun to watch - and you can really see what kind of actor AD is by watching BtVS Wes. AtS S2 Wes is much different - more confident, etc - and it's not that AD is a worse actor than before, it's just that you have something to compare BtVS Wes to now... (does this make any sense?)

 

[bibliosylph]

the Wesley of Buffy just didn't have much material to work with, and it wasn't supposed to be an ongoing thing. then they had to take him somewhere, and seemed to invest in him. which is a special thing. and they didn't screw it up like, well, you know.

b/c I would *love* to see AD act like Spike and JM act like Wes! - but it would be really cool!

that would be really wonderful. what a great idea! there's real opportunity for that, and then i wouldn't even mind if they trotted out the Head Boy line for the zillionth time!

 

[Highlander II]

I mean - really - those two are amazing - they could *so* pull that off -

Yes, I know, we've done that 'body switching' thing - but it wasn't really 'funny' - it was angsty and rushed and 'OMG! Put me back now!' --

Spike and Wes trading bodies? That could be funny - would be funny -

Mostly - I just wanna see AD irritating Angel and JM having to be 'research guy'!

 

[bibliosylph]

i think Spike would like being so tall. he'd notice a few extra inches. but he wouldn't dig the wardrobe. and Wesley would have to drink blood and that would be funny. "Dear god, it's--nummy!" only, he'd mean it!

this is no longer really about Lineage, is it...?

 

[Highlander II]

no- we've kinda floated off into a weird spin-off of Lineage -

to get back on topic --

Angel and Spike trying to comfort Wes w/ tales of killing their own parents -

Makes you wonder though - whatever happened to William's father? We've only heard about his mother, and she was ill... where is 'dear old dad' in William's life? And, should we also assume that William is an only child? There's been no mention of siblings - not that that means much, but unless his mother was ill immediately after William was born, wouldn't it be unusual for her to only have the one child? Unless, of course, 'daddy dearest' was gone / killed / etc sometime after William was born...

backstory is so much fun...

 

[bibliosylph]

yes, and it's to the creators' credit that we "feel" there must be a backstory because it's all so real.

and stepping away from Lineage but starting back toward it...

i figure William's mom had tb? was it mentioned? and she could have had that when he was born and just languished on and off for years. or something similar.

but usually the dad outlived the mom in the late 19th century. she didn't look like a woman of low standards, but she could have been an old maid who had to marry like, her dad's cousin or something and he was old.

my bigger concern is that he mentioned how his mom tried to shag him. did i see that flashback? i remember him talking about when he turned and then subsequently stake her. i remember that she got even creepier than he was. (and boy, is it ever time for you and i do have a proper deconstruction of Spike) but i don't remember that.

also, wondering, i know the whole thing was done for comic effect, but Wes must have known Fred's parents were still alive since they visited the Hyperion.

 

[Highlander II]

RE: Spike's mom trying to shag him -

From "Lies My Parents Told Me" -

She mentioned that he 'wanted to get back inside' or something to that effect - and she was coming onto him - in a really creepy kind of way - She was touching his face and cooing at him and stuff - it was totally weird. Not as 'blatant' as some 'come ons' but that's what she was doing ...


I think I had something remotely on topic to add, but I can't remeber what it was...

 

[tokyogirl]

Originally posted by bibliosylph
i sure wish to know what they do remember. i loved that scene. remember when she first appeared, how it looked like it could happen, but then she was the Wes and Cordy was the Gunn, for a little while?

i know what you mean. i felt the same way with the whole buffy/dawn thing. i kind of wanted to know how the past few years went with dawn there. same thing here, i wish i knew what exactly they believed happened. like i'm guessing they remember jasmine, because they all know that cordy's in a coma....but what all do they remember and not remember exactly? and i do like this time though that some one actually does remember things the way they really happened. it's a little more fun that way.

 

[Highlander II]

But - did you notice that Angel seems to always burden himself w/ 'remembering things they way they were' - he never 'shares' or 'lets' anyone else take that on. Not to mention he made a HUGE decision for everyone there -

Why hasn't anyone mentioned this? What gives Angel the right to decide for everyone to have their memories altered? Isn't that a lot like what Willow did in "Tabula Rasa", trying to get Buffy to forget she was in heaven and Tara to forget she was angry at Willow? How is what Angel did different? Sure, she 'saved' his son, but he altered the memories and lives of the people around him. I have a feeling they're going to be VERY angry when they find out.

 

[bibliosylph]

personally, really tired of Angel and his burdens. at first i was gonna say, yes, nice change of pace for someone to be in the know. but what he does with it is his usual martyr thing. not into that so much after all this time.

see, i like Angel, but he often seems impetuous, emotionally-driven, childish. why, after all this time?

still, he has the memories, and to me, that means the others will get to have them back. i just hope it's not episode 21 or 22 when it happens!

 

[tokyogirl]

well, i think maybe it's a whole connor-protection thing on angel's part. the more people that know about him, the more of a chance that something else could happen to him. and now that i think about it, it was probably angel's choice to remember him. i have no doubt that W&H could have removed his memories too, but he probably chose not to

 

[Highlander II]

My problem is that Angel decided for Wes, Fred, Gunn, Lorne, everyone else to have the memory of Connor removed -- he never asked them if they wanted that or if it would be a good idea - he never discussed it with them. It's not like he went to the store and bought 2% milk instead of Skim milk - he took away a part of these people - w/o their consent - it's wrong - it's the SAME THING Willow did in S6 -- and everyone had a field day tearing her apart.

I have a feeling this is gonna come back and bite Angel in the butt - the gang is gonna be highly upset and even though they may understand, they'll be quite put out that they were not allowed to be part of the decision making process...

 

[tokyogirl]

hehehe, i like the milk analogy but you're right about it coming back to bite him in the butt. things like that always do

Spoiler

k, i'm putting this in spoilers because it sort of is one......i had seen something somewhere (don't ask me where cause i would never be able to remember) saying that there's a good chance connor will be back if only for a little bit this season. now i could be totally mis-remembering (i don't think that's a word) but that's what i remember

 

[Highlander II]

What is your spoiler referencing? That way I know if it's something I've already seen or not ---

About the milk - thank you -

and yes - things tend to bite Angel and co in the butt when they do stuff like this.

I wonder if Spike might twig to some things -- b/c he keeps hearing bits and pieces all over - wonder if he may start to put some together.... hmmmmmm

 

[Cloud Strife]

something i read about connor somewhere.....maybe.... i don't really remember the article that well....