British soldiers or personnel at the SGC, something that should've been done.

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I've launched this thread to stop this thread going too off topic >> http://www.ascifi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=449877#post449877

I'll pose the question for those of you not yet in the know that i did initially.

Leading from this point, the finale ep from one of the last season or the one before involved the UN representatives of Great Britain, China and France where they were informed of the Stargate.

After we saw the Russian involvement in the SGC for a short period of time prior to that i was wondering why they didn't go further with this. Now being British and our close ties/nearly 51st state type relationship with the US i've always wondered why we never had some SAS personnel in at least one ep. The US and Royal marines worked together and in intergrated divisions in the Gulf and in history but the Russians were invited first. Granted there were some other factors but now other nations are in the loop we're still absent.

Ohe well, I would've liked it, anyone got any opinions, maybe in season 8 or a film or Atlantis, hm

Anyone??

That's the question
Nick,

 

[Darth Simpson]

I think the point was that the Us was unwilling to let anyone in. If they let us Brits in, they would have to let the other countries get involved also. You saw in that episode when Hammond announces the SGC to those world leaders that he was adamant that the SGC remain in the hands of the americans, (even to the point of getting Thor to appear on his behalf)

The only others to ever have access (to my knowledge) were the Russians (who had their own gate at the time) and the NID who were also americans but servillians.

The only natural progression from this, if there was to be an alliance, would be a multinational force (for example UN troops).
In a military operation you cannot have different troops, with different allegencies, answering to different commanders, all on the same project.

Either way you would never see SAS because they are only used as a last resort in specific circumstances (you never see the american equivalent - special forces or navy seals in the show)

But having said all that, I think you're right. Certainly international or UN troops would make more sense. If the situation were real I don't believe even America would be strong enough to defend the planet on their own.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Darth Simpson
you never see the american equivalent - special forces or navy seals in the show

I don't think that's true - it's been implied in several episodes that the general "guards" around the SGC and external sites (eg. Prometheus dockyard) were Special Forces. These are different to the specially selected SG team members.

Also, we have definitely seen SFs in specific episodes such as "Matter of Time" and "Foothold" when the SGC is stormed...

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I think the point was that the Us was unwilling to let anyone in. If they let us Brits in, they would have to let the other countries get involved also. You saw in that episode when Hammond announces the SGC to those world leaders that he was adamant that the SGC remain in the hands of the americans, (even to the point of getting Thor to appear on his behalf)

The only others to ever have access (to my knowledge) were the Russians (who had their own gate at the time) and the NID who were also americans but servillians.

The only natural progression from this, if there was to be an alliance, would be a multinational force (for example UN troops).
In a military operation you cannot have different troops, with different allegencies, answering to different commanders, all on the same project.

Either way you would never see SAS because they are only used as a last resort in specific circumstances (you never see the american equivalent - special forces or navy seals in the show)

But having said all that, I think you're right. Certainly international or UN troops would make more sense. If the situation were real I don't believe even America would be strong enough to defend the planet on their own.

Darth Simpson,

Firstly i don't see why they would have to let others in too if the Brits has some small participation. THe Brits and the US have worked jointly on many projects we know about and many we don't i would like to bet. We are like distant cousins. I remember during the Iraqi conflict i woke up early one Sunday morning about 36-48 hours in. A US Marine platoon worked with the Royal Marines and a light tank unit like they were the same Army, well actually they were [even under British command] but you know what i mean. The Brits normally see things the smae as the Americans, we'd have some sort of agreement concerning technology and British personnel working at the SGC and i can't see us going Russian on them or having too much of a different agenda.

I would be opposed to a UN SGC, especially with current world event to go by, you couldn't rely on the French or the Germans or the Chinese to play ball. The planet isn't ready for something like a Stargate.

I don't see anything wrong with the proposal, if the US is going to let anyone else in on it bar the Russinas and that was related to certain other factors then it has to be us, there is no doubt.

On the SAS, let's not split hairs too much here, a British SGC team would have the best of the British armed forces in it and maybe a British Daniel. It would be someone from the SAS or to that level, if not than then the SBS or the elite of the Paras or the Royal Marines. You're not gonna send a nugget off world are you. The personnel on the base are often referred to as SF's, Special Forces and for your information the US have many elite units numbering many thousands.

Nick,

 

[Darth Simpson]

Yes all good points.

Its true we have certain special units in the show, but as you pointed out, they were only used in specific situations. They were rarely (if ever) used for normal offworld missions. I just think that any other troops involved (whatever nation) would be specifically trained for off world missions like the SG1. They would not necessarily be from already existing units (like SAS), but more likely, be 'new units' trained for these types of unique missions. The SAS are the best at what they do, but put them in a totally unkown, alien environment, and I think anyone untrained in this field would struggle.

Its also true that the U.S.A and the Brits worked together in Iraq but for the big missions, they would work seperately. For example the way that Basra was given to the British Dessert Rats to deal with, while the American troops dealt with Bagdad. The point is you would avoid getting in each others way as much as possible. (lord knows they have enough problems with friendly fire as it is)

Also in regards to U.S.A and Britain 'going it alone' I think its a crazy idea. We did it in Iraq and look at the problems it has caused in the UN let alone between our own people and their respective governments. One of the founding members of the UN (USA) almost pulled out of the UN and nearly dragged us Brits out with them. Surely we must have a multi-planetary ruling body, a council that 'No-one' is above. No one country should have exclusive rights to anything that effects the entire planet. Imagine if was the other way round and Iraq and say Afganistan had a secret devise to visit other planets. We certainly would not them keep it for long.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Darth Simpson
Its true we have certain special units in the show, but as you pointed out, they were only used in specific situations.

They're used to guard the SGC - every week...

The SAS are the best at what they do, but put them in a totally unkown, alien environment, and I think anyone untrained in this field would struggle.

Who else would you want in those scenarios, and who else is trained? Surely you would want to take the best and train them, not start with some numpty straight out of basic training.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Its true we have certain special units in the show, but as you pointed out, they were only used in specific situations. They were rarely (if ever) used for normal offworld missions. I just think that any other troops involved (whatever nation) would be specifically trained for off world missions like the SG1. They would not necessarily be from already existing units (like SAS), but more likely, be 'new units' trained for these types of unique missions. The SAS are the best at what they do, but put them in a totally unkown, alien environment, and I think anyone untrained in this field would struggle.

Have you not seen the episode in season i believe where Sg1 get pulled into these stasis pods on what seems to be a green and normal planet. There is the guardian who has entertained the surviviors over the centuries through their memories. One of O'Neill's was of a covert ops surgical strike on a house in what looked like Eastern Europe with Kawalski. The military doesn't normally send standard troops to do those kind of jobs does it?

Point being that you'll need that background or skill level to be sent off world and the SAS or SBS or elite Paras or whatever are of that level in the British military. You must accept that. In "Children of the Gods the two teams appeared to cope well enough on their first mission and the SGC grew to 12 or 16 teams in a shrot amount of time with the best training and education that could be mustered on short notice. You would expect the same adaptability from an elite British unit

Its also true that the U.S.A and the Brits worked together in Iraq but for the big missions, they would work seperately. For example the way that Basra was given to the British Dessert Rats to deal with, while the American troops dealt with Bagdad. The point is you would avoid getting in each others way as much as possible. (lord knows they have enough problems with friendly fire as it is)

What i am getting at are the practicalities of a Brit American alliance.

Speak the same language
Use some of the same equipment and weaponry
Share info and intel already
Combination training and war games
Mutual respect

All things that exist and apply to both parties.

The command that implemented the capture of Basra had a US Marine batallion fully under its command and intergrated with the British personnel.

Also in regards to U.S.A and Britain 'going it alone' I think its a crazy idea. We did it in Iraq and look at the problems it has caused in the UN let alone between our own people and their respective governments. One of the founding members of the UN (USA) almost pulled out of the UN and nearly dragged us Brits out with them. Surely we must have a multi-planetary ruling body, a council that 'No-one' is above. No one country should have exclusive rights to anything that effects the entire planet. Imagine if was the other way round and Iraq and say Afganistan had a secret devise to visit other planets. We certainly would not them keep it for long.

I could get into a political debate about Iraq and US/British action there but this is a scifi forum as i'll pass for now.

Remember what the Stargate is Darth Simpson, it is pretty mush totally secret, nobody knows which means no damned STWC or far left group can create oan issue or a planet held to ransom by some Arrogant Franco/German alliance that should know its place in the world. The UN is a perfect example that a UN SGC would be a disaster on huge scale. The defence of the planet would be jepordised by domestic political disputes and spite by Nations who don't realise what we have here. Remember that in this context the Stargate is in the possession of the United States, i take offence to the idea that you could possibly compare the countries of Afghanistan and Iraq to Britain and America, so that is my answer to that.

I echo what PTeppic is saying also

Nick,

 

[ray gower]

Don't get hung up on the idea of SAS or Parachute Regiments. They are the best troops in the world for their respective duties. But, most of the SG teams roles are involved with diplomacy. You do not need psychotic killers for the role, no matter how well house-trained they are. So if we must be dragged in, the team would have to be built from regular line regiments, where they do tend to be more diplomatic.

The US Special Forces are 100 time larger than their British counterparts. Partly because the army is 10 times larger than the UK's, partly because they are more liberal with the term 'Special Forces' (a flight of RAF Regiment [rockapes] could easily defend the gate itself and are trained for that sort of mission) but mostly because this is Hollywood.

Otherwise, the US is welcome to have the Stargate and look after it. Any attempt to show British or UN troops involvement would result in somebody being shown as stupid. As this is an American show and it already has its heroes that can do no wrong, it will show poorly on any other poor sap.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by ray gower
You do not need psychotic killers for the role< no matter how well house-trained they are.

Funnily enough, that's pretty much how the SAS seem to be viewed by the UK Army's "14 Intelligence Company", who are arguably even more selective in their recruitment and more highly trained in their skill set...

 

[Darth Simpson]

LOL - I knew this was a good thread, that's why I posted in it to get it moving.

I think the bottom line is that the format for the SG teams would remain a constant and whoever was selected to be in the teams (whether american or British), I think we all agree they would be the best in their feilds.

As we know from SG1 you would have a good mix of personel ranging from diplomats and archeologists to military specialists and scientists. Either way they would be 'the best of the best' (to use a phrase from MIB)

In regards to an international force in command of the Stargate, it would only work if the gate was in neutral territory as suggested in the show. Personally I feel, in reality, this would be the only viable option for something of this magnitude, other wise you would be going down the same road as the cold war, where secrets and competition for technology with 'the other side' were the norm.(In other words-pushing world peace and diplomacy back twenty years)

I think the best message on this subject from the show was the fact that even the West's biggest rivals in the cold war, the Russians, were willing to work together for mutual benefit.

 

[KatDonovan]

Umm, actually, I believe that the SF's in Stargate stands for Security Forces, not Special Forces. They are more like Army MP's, Military Police.

They wouldn't waste their Special Forces troops on internal security like that, I wouldn't think.

I've always WANTED them to add a Navy Seal team to the SGC. They have Marines and I believe a team of Army Rangers, though I could be mistaken about that. But I think adding a team of Seals would be great. Not just the sending them through the gate, but explaining to a bunch of Navy men why they were being reassigned to a Mountain complex in the middle of the US.

But I do believe that British forces should be added to the SGC. If any other country could add to the workings there, it would be you Brits.

 

[Darth Simpson]

SF

Just got this from an ex US Ranger in another forum. Thought it was quite interesting.

I'll give you my take on Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta Force, Rangers, Seals, and Marine Force Recon.

The primary difference between each of these is their mission or missions.

Special Forces (SF) is intended to operate in small units (6 to 12, sometimes 24 people) behind enemy lines for long periods of time, sometimes working with the local population in training a querilla force. SF training is long and intense, with each person focusing on a specialty (weapons, field medicine, communications, demolitions, language, those sorts of things), and cross-training for a secondary specialty.

The Ranger Battalions are organized as infantry units, just like any infantry unit in the Army. The differences between Rangers and the rest of the Army are (1) Rangers train to a much higher standard, and (2) their primary missions are raids, recons, ambushes, and "VIP snatches" (kidnapping important enemy personnel). Rangers operate behind enemy lines like SF, except Rangers go in, kick @$$, take names, and get out. They don't occupy territory like regular Army units, and they don't train guerilla forces like SF.

In 1977, when I was in the 1st Ranger Battalion, the Delta Force was just being formed. The president wanted someone to fill the anti-terrorist role for a couple of years while Delta got up to speed, and the Rangers were selected to fill that role. So we trained for hostage rescue (a variation on the "VIP snatch"), close combat in cities, and nuclear device recovery. About the time I left the Battalion, they also added marine recon, dropping us in the ocean so we could sneak ashore, recon, and swim back out for pick up.

After Delta Force became active, the Rangers were still involved in some of those activities, but their primary use was as a "blocking force". In other words, if we went somewhere to rescue hostages, the SF or Delta might do the actual extraction, but the Rangers would take the airfield, or set up ambushes to keep the bad guys reinforcements from being deployed.

Delta Force is focused on anti-terrorist activities. You volunteer for it just like any other unit, but their requirements are much stiffer. Generally you have to be SF or Ranger first. They operate in smal units, but if they are doing a hostage rescue in a hostile area, they will work with other units like the Rangers.

In the Marines, Force Recon is their equivalent to the Ranger Battalions. In fact, when I went through Ranger School, there were several Force Recon guys there, including a lieutenant who led a platoon in the rescue of the Mayaguez crew (I'm sure I'm the only one old enough to remember that. Anyone else here ever read about it?)

Seals are like a cross between SF and Delta Force, but their history is older than both. Seals grew out of World War 2 Underwater Demolition Teams (UDT). SEAL is an acronym for SEA-AIR-LAND, meaning they can come at you from any direction. SF developed in the 1950s. Delta Force was organized in the 1970s.

There's a lot of overlap between these units in terms of skills and training and missions. In fact, each of these units will sometimes train with others. When I was in the Army, we sent people to Marine Amphibious Training and Marine Sniper School, and Marines sent people to Ranger School. When Delta Force was activated, the Rangers did some cross-training with them.

 

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by KatDonovan
They wouldn't waste their Special Forces troops on internal security like that, I wouldn't think.

So who WOULD you want guarding the planet's most top secret base?

 

[KatDonovan]

If it were real, I would rather have the Special Forces units going through the gate on missions instead of standing around waiting for something to go wrong while watching nimrods like Daniel Jackson, or science nerds like Sam Carter going through and causing all kinds of problems. I have a feeling that if it WAS Special Forces providing base security, they would get pretty PO'd watching all the stupid things SG1 gets up to.

Security Forces, specially trained for base security, are used in every military base in the world. The best of the best would be tapped for security at the most important base. Just because they are not 'Special Forces' commando types, doesn't mean they couldn't get the job done.

Of course, none of it is real, so I guess it doesn't matter what SF's stands for.

Kat

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

If it were real, I would rather have the Special Forces units going through the gate on missions instead of standing around waiting for something to go wrong while watching nimrods like Daniel Jackson, or science nerds like Sam Carter going through and causing all kinds of problems. I have a feeling that if it WAS Special Forces providing base security, they would get pretty PO'd watching all the stupid things SG1 gets up to.

As an avid Stargate fan i thin you could be burned at the stake for saying things like that.

The combination that is Sg1 provides a pretty much perfect balance in my view. If it were just special forces it would probably be closer to the NID model and not SGC but i might be wrong.

Just to say that when i originally started the thread ans used the examples of the SAS or SBS or whatever the mian point was the skill level in the same way O'Neill has that background or Carter and the flight hours she clocked in combat or ops behind enemy lines and what i could see the likes of Sg3 having.

Nick,

 

[KatDonovan]

Originally posted by Nick 0208 Ldn


As an avid Stargate fan i thin you could be burned at the stake for saying things like that.

LOL!!

Oh, I'm as avid a Stargate fan as you can find. :aliengray But, if it was real life, I don't think I'd want those particular people in charge of missions. You've got to admit, they've done some pretty stupid stuff in the last 7 years.


Kat:blpaw:

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Kat,

You do have a point, sometimes curiosity nearlly killed the Sg1 cat.

Ii just feel that some teams with the make up of Sg1 are beneficial and neessary if it were in real life, especially if the possibility of frst contact was high. You'd need a mixture, i just wouldn't want our representatives on anothr world to be like the NID, might send out the wrong message.

Nick,