The Red Lady Conspiracy Theory

[Aegon the Unworthy]

In the spirit of RTs crackpot Ashara theory, I figure Id put together my own in a demonstration of the proper way to confuse confound and amaze you all with my deduction and prognostication capabilities.....

Heres the theory: Lady M (Melisandre or however that is spelled) is not a priest of the Fire Dude R'hllor (or however that is spelled) but is in actuality a mage of some sort masquerading as such and is current allied to whatever nameless evil she claims to fight.

In contrast I present Thoros of Myr.

Clues

1) Madame M accomplishes three specific magic feats in the first two books....gives birth to a shadow monster....repels the poison the first maester attempted to use on her and the whole death of 4 kings (presumed, could be a lucky shot) by sacrificing blood in a fire. Its important to note that while fire is an element of the magic, its not a core component....the shadow monster is birthed from shadows of a fire (still "shadow" magic in my book), the blood seems most important in the leeches case, and the gem around her neck only flares...doesnt actually flame.

2) When Thoros of Myr sets Beric sword aflame, it actually flames...it catches the Hounds shield on fire. Master Aemon points out to us that Stannis sword Lightbringer doesnt generate heat, implying that her fire is an illusion...even his scabbard has no burn marks.

3) She "sees" Davos coming to kill her in the flames, but that happens off-screen....could be lying.

So there you go, Lady M is an agent of evil whose task is to raise some evil beast with "royal blood" or put a puppet on the throne....havent decided which....but her task will be changing soon to destroying the wall after she has evil possessed Stannis firmly ensconced in the "Nightfort". Seriously that part is not a coincidence, Stannis (thanks to Ms machinations) is going to be the face of evil....

Discuss, flame, mock.....I relinquish the floor

 

[Mort]

It is a pretty common theory. There are two more things I can think of - Mell uses blood, like the magi, and Mell says to Davos (I can't find the exact quote right now) the Other's priests wear appealing and unsuspicious disguises. A Rho'll priest is a quite good disguise..
The question is what Mell's trying to do. I'm pretty sure we have heard of the prophecy of Azar-something not only from Mell. Means, she really thinks Stannis is Azar something, and she probably plans to spoil him. A crazy idea, maybe the Other's *are* the Other's army or something, and Mell wants to help them?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Common? Common!!!!?? How come this is the first Ive heard....seriously people you need to let me know these things before I utter them as my own original work, not afterwards....is this too much to ask?

So should I check in about my theory about Jon not really being Neds ******* son? Has that one been uttered too?

 

[Mort]

Sorry to dissapoint you. I think this theory has been already discussed here once. Heck it, it can be discussed again. Anyway, well done for thinking about this yourself. I knew all along there's something funny about Mell, but I wasn't sure what is it.

Hmm.. I think you just should google "ASOIAF theoris"..
Just in case, there's already a theory of "Syrio Forel = Jacken"

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I dont check the internet for posts on ASoIaF...I cant. Im behind a proxy server the blocks most sites...not this one for some reason (so thank you my british friends) so I check this website. I do my due diligence and check before hand to make sure Im not duplicating a thread in the last year or two....and I can safely say my theory has not been uttered on this website in at least two years, except by myself of course in remarkably one-sided conversation in someone elses thread that I was unable to thread-jack....

so there ya go...its now my remarkably uncommon theory once again....bwahahahahahaha

 

[Mort]

I can't post here links because I dont have 15 posts yet. So just search " Stannis **spoilers* ", and look for a theard with this name.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well whether or not it's been discussed before, it hasn't been recently on here at least.

I like the theory but I still can't see who gains from it. If she is an agent of the Others what is she gaining? They don't seem to like people who aren't Others themselves and she wouldn't be going near any flames if she was remotely like them.
I can buy the theory if she's formenting chaos in Westeros on behalf of an outside agent, but then why bother with this R'hllor stuff if that were the case. She seems to have firstly helped Stannis and now her zealot stance is hurting him more than helping.
She is maybe a more militant "wing" of her religion? Thoros seemed fairly relaxed about other religions (although perhaps he is an outcast for those beliefs) but to Melissandre, she tolerants no others. She burned the statues of the seven gods on Dragonstone and converted all to her god. It'll be interesting if she trys taking a torch to the chapel or the weirwood at the Wall. I wonder how Jon will react to that. Stannis has more men, and better equipped no doubt, than the Night's Watch so in any violent confrontation I can't see them winning...

 

[Boaz]

Aegon, I've been here just over a year, I remember reading doubts about Melissandre's authenticity and suspicions about her actions... yet no one has put them together to try and make some sensical theory regarding her.

I've also had the first response to A New And Exciting Theory Of Mine say, "What? That old dead horse again!"

Anyway, Aegon, if you want support for your theory and you don't mind spoilers... then look at red temple's notes from a reading of Jon's first chapter from the next book. red temple's notes are on the second page of the thread. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=8932&st=20

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I can't post here links because I dont have 15 posts yet. So just search " Stannis **spoilers* ", and look for a theard with this name.

You mean the thread thats a year and half old...which discusses Stannis but not M ...or the one half a year old that discusses this very same thing? Except that one is the aborted thread jacking I discussed earlier and every post about this is by me. Now leave me to my fun....

Well whether or not it's been discussed before, it hasn't been recently on here at least.

I like the theory but I still can't see who gains from it. If she is an agent of the Others what is she gaining? They don't seem to like people who aren't Others themselves and she wouldn't be going near any flames if she was remotely like them.
I can buy the theory if she's formenting chaos in Westeros on behalf of an outside agent, but then why bother with this R'hllor stuff if that were the case. She seems to have firstly helped Stannis and now her zealot stance is hurting him more than helping.
She is maybe a more militant "wing" of her religion? Thoros seemed fairly relaxed about other religions (although perhaps he is an outcast for those beliefs) but to Melissandre, she tolerants no others. She burned the statues of the seven gods on Dragonstone and converted all to her god. It'll be interesting if she trys taking a torch to the chapel or the weirwood at the Wall. I wonder how Jon will react to that. Stannis has more men, and better equipped no doubt, than the Night's Watch so in any violent confrontation I can't see them winning...

I tried to point out the M doesnt use fire in her magics, its implied and she says she does but in actuality she doesnt seem to...maybe she doesnt have any real power over fire. Either shes deluded into believing shes a good priest or Martin is obfuscating something. So I dont think Rh'llor is any more than lip service, burning the Seven does her side just as much good as it does the fire guy....

Okay bear with...lets say she sees Stannis tied up in her sides prophecy...specifics Ill leave to others, that Stannis is going to be the instrument that brings about ruination....with me so far? Or I could even accept Stannis is going to be the instrument that brings about the fight with the ice wielding dark forces and M wants to be R'hllors instrument that begins the final fight and thus is helping Stannis to begin the releasing of evil....but thats something that implies M is who she says she is just evil about it. Another thread, another day.

So she feeds him drivel about being Azor Ahai or whatever (or believes he is and AA is an embodiment of evil), then attempts to help him with her evil ways, figuring he'll be a better instrument when he has more power. So then she gets thwarted, but she knows her time is coming.....then the Hand brings her the Nights Watch lament...Ding! the lightbulb goes off in her little brain. Of course...shes working to bring something evil down from the north, whatever is behind the others....or the others themselves cut a deal.....so of course she's all for Stannis going north....

Notice all of Stannis' moves put him in a position of power within the northern boundary....something that could easily lead to the subversion or destruction of the nights watch....oh wait, and he's in the nightfort (the place where souls go to be possessed)...It can easily be Melisandres red lips whispering this stuff to him. Im telling ya, Stannis is going to be the lead "Other" in the future.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Aegon, I've been here just over a year, I remember reading doubts about Melissandre's authenticity and suspicions about her actions... yet no one has put them together to try and make some sensical theory regarding her.

I've also had the first response to A New And Exciting Theory Of Mine say, "What? That old dead horse again!"

Anyway, Aegon, if you want support for your theory and you don't mind spoilers... then look at red temple's notes from a reading of Jon's first chapter from the next book. red temple's notes are on the second page of the thread. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=8932&st=20

Thanks Boaz...the more I research (strike that...) the more I have information handed to me, the more I feel M is so ardent about the final battle shes actually accelerating things towards the final battle. You know, sorta like Stannis if he were religious. She has such faith in her R-god that she wants the wights to come south. She wants to destroy them and whatever gets in the way be damned. Im torn between agent of evil posing as a priest and extremely militant priest making the ultimate battle come quicker.

I still think shes taking Stannis places he wouldnt want to go, she's orchestrating his descent into evil....

 

[Mort]

Hmm. In Mel's point of view, there must be a war, and Stannis is Azor Ahi.
Now, Stannis supposed to side with Rho'll. If he sides with the Other, there must be an enemy, means another one will fight for Rho'll, or there will be no war. Am I wrong? it makes a few problems..
Anyway it's hard for me to belive there will be a great war against the Others or something. It seems too generic, a war against the ultimate evil and such..

I end the "is it your original theory or not" fight, it just don't matter.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Interesting this was brought up again. Over on the "other board" someone dug up my old Stannis theory (back when I was known as FreySlayer - I actually felt the need to change names because of all the comments I received telling me how violent my name was ) and it was very well received. I thought about bumping it up to see what sort of response it would receive nowadays. At the time the reception seemed tepid.
Anyway, here is a link if anyone is interested: Stannis Theory

And the discussion that took place off board:
Stannis discussion

For the record I agree with your assessment of Mel. Ive always been surprised by people who believe her motivations are genuine.
Good catch on the Nightfort btw, most people missed that.

One minor point about Thoros, doesnt he coat his blade with something? I believe he ruins swords on a regular basis. The key to Thoros vs. Mel is how differently they seem to practice the same religion. Why has she never given the dead the "Breath"?

I congratulate you!

 

[Dolorous Edd]

One minor point about Thoros, doesnt he coat his blade with something? I believe he ruins swords on a regular basis. The key to Thoros vs. Mel is how differently they seem to practice the same religion. Why has she never given the dead the "Breath"?

I congratulate you!

Yes, but does he not then mention once he joins the BHWB that he no longer needs to? that it now really works? he says that before he was just going through the motions of being a red priest, that he was vain and corrupt, but that he's gone through a rebirth, and the power of his god is with him or some such. Basically, either because of the birth of the dragons, or because he now trully believes, he really can make the sword burn, and resurect the dead.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

You are correct! I just found that information. Good call.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Hmm. In Mel's point of view, there must be a war, and Stannis is Azor Ahi.
Now, Stannis supposed to side with Rho'll. If he sides with the Other, there must be an enemy, means another one will fight for Rho'll, or there will be no war. Am I wrong? it makes a few problems..
Anyway it's hard for me to belive there will be a great war against the Others or something. It seems too generic, a war against the ultimate evil and such..

I end the "is it your original theory or not" fight, it just don't matter.

Youre right it doesnt matter. I was attempting humor and didnt feel like dealing with the issue that you kept bringing up. So lets just move on, with the acknowledgement that all my ideas about this work are derivative...Im okay with that.

Suppose yer Lady M and yer a militant force of "good". An extreme force of good....like Pat Roberts and the 700 club....you know yer side is stronger (faith is a terrible thing)...the confrontation is inevitable, and the conclusion (in your mind at least) is already decided. Why not help it happen...in fact its in your faiths best interest to make it happen. If it doesnt, itll just be delayed a millenia and you never know what could happen between now and then. So why not force the issue...which is what shes doing. If she believes Stannis is going to be responsible for bringing the Others onto the field then why not help him...that exposes those things to R'hllors might.....bam! problem solved. All you need is a patsy like Stannis....

Of course the part where she never actually uses fire (so far) bugs the bejeesus outta me. Anyone want to give me an scenario where that is accounted for and she is not an evil sorceress collaborator conspiring with the enemy......seriously, Im listening.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Basically, either because of the birth of the dragons, or because he now trully believes, he really can make the sword burn, and resurect the dead.

This is the part that really really really really...wait for it....really seems odd. Mel is deeper into the mysteries of R'hllor by all accounts yet Lightbringer doesnt burn? And some sword Thoros picked up from the corpse of Lannister yokel yesterday flames to life(authors discretion). There has to be a reason for the discrepancy, if it was just a coinicidence Martin wouldnt have made an issue right? But he goes out of his way....dammit Im right back to M is an agent of evil. You people need to make up my mind for me.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

You people need to make up my mind for me.

LOL,

I think the contrast between Thoros and Mel is deliberate and striking. Mel's intentions are clearly suspect when contemplating the comparison.

It is possible that she is just wildy misguided with reasonable intentions, but her actions seem too deliberate and calculated, not reckless and fervered as you would expect a fanatical zealot to be.

 

[Mort]

Bha, well, after a lot of thinking, I think Mel's just trying to make Azor Ahi go to the Other's side. Perhaps she thinks if Azor Ahi will be on the Other's side, Rho'll will lose. But, if Dany is Azor Ahi, Mel got screwed.

By the way, the prophet Cersie went to used blood, didn't she? I still think Mel is some kind of a Magi. Maybe she use blood for her prophecies. Do we have a proof she actully see her things in flames? Except one time Stannis said he saw things, but I think he was so weak back then, Mel could show him anything in fire..

Now, Jon is supposed to have royal blood, because the Starks have blood of the King in the North. And Mel will burn him, and then we'll discover his actully a Targ, and he'll become a dragon, and burn Mel.
Quite amusing, I must say

 

[MIDNIGHT]

Mel has been bothering me for quite some time now. I'm on my millionth reread of the series and was halfway through ACOK when in a Davos chapter I spotted this "Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well.a morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's landing." Stannis was lead to believe that this was an alternate future that she saw in her flames but really it wasn't ,it was the truth (as someone pretended to be Renly in the battle ,and so they lost).Makes me wonder just how much does she know , and just how is she using this info to manipulate Stannis into doing her wishes. Just a thought.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

She does refer to Rh'llor as the God of Fire and Shadow once, I believe, so perhaps she and Thoros simply worship different aspects of the same god.