Sword vs Sorcery?

[Talysia]

Or rather, skill vs magic.

I've often wondered whilst I was reading Eddings' books about the difference between his characters that use magic (ie the Will and the Word) and those who use weapons or skills, (such as fighting ability, stealth or horsemanship).
Whilst I like the big magical showdowns, I find that I prefer reading about the little talents that the other characters have. In some cases, it makes them seem more human, especially considering the things they achieve without the use of magic.
Should more recognition go to the characters without magic, or is the balance just right?

 

[YuYus dumber Brother]

I think those characters do get the recognition. Think of Silk. when attacking someone Eddings ussually takes his time to describe his actions much more thoroughly that other writers. How he rolls coming up feet first into akick Barak using his brute strength to just about hack through everything in front. Hettar the silent gracefull flowing from one movement into the next. Clearly described.

What bugs me is that Edding ain't consistent with the magical powers.
In Belgarath the sorcerer he described how he went in to Nyiasan forest got bitten three times but luckily he knew how to extract the poison. When Gorek got slain Belgarath removed the drugs for the nyiasans blood. Why then when lelldorin was poisoned by the algroths didn't he do it then. Chamdar knew where he was so he wouldn't have given his position away.

SO for me i would think the balance is right.

also look at the elenium.. Sparhawk wiggles his fingers but Kalten just bashes his way through "elene magic", which crudely points to making kindling form a door by the judicious application of a booted foot. Also fairly balanced for me.

 

[Talysia]

Ah, fair point about Elene magic and the rest, and yes, I agree that the other characters are well described in their actions and skills. It just seemed to me that with Eddings' books, it always seems like the main hero gets powers of sorcery in some manner and then saves the world. Just once - for the sake of variation if nothing else - I'd like to see a character that doesn't use magic or sorcery beome the hero in an Eddings novel.

 

[devilsgrin]

if your after a subtle hero, Eddings isn't for you. I'm a huge fan of Eddings' work, but subtlety is not one of the strongsuits of his writing. The smaller, less flashy skills are there, but they don't dominate, and alas for you, are unliley to do so.
Look at Sadi, he's a very subtle character in the Malloreon. Potentially he could kill far more people than any of the non-sorcerors, but his skill at poisoning and politics is rarely seen. And while i still liked him, the book was about Garion and the other five key characters (Polgara, Belgarath, Durnik, Ce'Nedra and Silk) and their skills and character are going to dominate.

Eddings seems to like the roguish characters (Silk) i can see a book of Eddings, at some point, having the shadowy character as the true hero. But anything else is unlikely.

 

[Talysia]

Now, that I would like to see! For roguish main characters, I know there was Althalus, but I would love to see another. I know he used the Book of Deiwos a lot (in terms of using magic), but he tended to use his wits and skills more.

 

[white_wanderer]

Ah, fair point about Elene magic and the rest, and yes, I agree that the other characters are well described in their actions and skills. It just seemed to me that with Eddings' books, it always seems like the main hero gets powers of sorcery in some manner and then saves the world. Just once - for the sake of variation if nothing else - I'd like to see a character that doesn't use magic or sorcery beome the hero in an Eddings novel.

Agreed, although Sparhawk is not seen using styric magic much in the Elenium.
Sparhawk thinks of himself as a Knight first, and a magic user to back up the combat training that he has had. Memorable examples are where he inflicts the courtier with a boil on his nose, draws the soldiers away with an illusion and presents some flowers to Sephrenia. His magic helps overcome that which his fighting cannot.

 

[Talysia]

That's a good point, actually. I'd all but forgotten about this thread. What you say about Sparhawk thinking of himself as a Knight first does make sense, too.

I'll have to do a reread, soon.

 

[Harleyquin]

In a combat situation most warriors will revert to muscle memory, its why you see so many military organisations putting so much effort into training - its all to help with the fact that in combat most people stop thinking coherently - or atleast calmly so therefor a lot of the responce actions come from the subconcious... your brains goin into "red mist" mode and your reflexes take over drawing on all that training which get you out of trouble.

What I think is the weakness of a magic user is that in eddings books and many others theres a lot of deliberate will or action involved... theres no muscle memory to fall back on - you MUST excorsise full controle of your brain for it to work.

So lets get a frothing Barak running at you screaming like a loon waving 40 inches of shiny pointy steel and I'm relitively sure out of 10 people 9 are going to think - "oh poo this is not good - run awayyyyyyyyyy".

Another problem with magic seems to be that one needs to "see" to be effective - remember Belgarath telling the people to bind the eyes of the others to make it harder for them to use magic?? Im a little scepticle at this but lets not get too hung up on the matter(why not use a little will to remove the blindfold if its that imperitive??).

Anyway - back to out 9 out of 10 people running for the hills because Baraks almost uppon them... All the 10th person has to do is summon some backbone - concentrate and say either "Break", "burst", "Explode", "Shatter"... I'm sure you mind can fill in the graphic gore.

So if your fighteres can get to the magicians before they have time to compose themselves then they win - if however the magician is a diciplined person - say a Belgarath who's had millenia to teach himself absolute mental controle... then I'd say the physical fighters in for a very short and painful end

 

[Talysia]

Good point, Harleyquin. I was reminded of Otha (from the Elenium) for the first example. He was a poor student of magic, so when the Church Knights charged him, yelling as they went, his concentration went.

 

[YuYus dumber Brother]

All training goes out the window when faced in such a scenario. Barak at full tilt or a Mandorallen laughing as he charged would put a dent in you carefully laid plans. The same with a Ulath or the chappy with the lochaber axe. If you're not so used to your magic as to use it by instinct you will come up short. Err about a head shorter at least.

 

[Talysia]

Lol! I like the way you phrase it, YDB!

 

[Harleyquin]

two men in the Jungle walking along then suddenly a lion jumps out, its long sharp fangs gleaming.

One man drops his pack and pulls out his running shoes and starts to lace them up.

the second man turns to his companion and says "you Fool!!! your never going to be able to out run a Lion!!"

and the first man retorts quickly "its not the lion I intend to outrun"

 

[Quokka]

Always liked that joke Harleyquin

I agree about Sparhawk, I dont think Eddings would have got away with centering the story around another orphan who comes into magical power. Using a grizzled veteran was a really great choice, I remember when I first started reading The Diamond Throne I was a bit dubious but now he's got to be close to my favourite Eddings character. I think a real strength of Eddings writing has been how he created a place for characters in amongst heros and magicians.

Alot of my favourite characters were the ones that earnt their place without being super tough, Kurik/Khalad with their practicality and even Kalten, who is a fair enough knight but he's real strength and contribution to the group always seemed to be his friendship.

I think the balance was pretty good throughout the Belgarian/Sparhawk stories.

 

[ghost8772]

well, each has its place. Sword is an instinctive level. moving through motions that have been practiced again and again, where the magic side required some intense concentration. yes, a charging Barak, Mandorallen, or even group of chruch knights is likely to interrupt someone's train of thought unless they are VERY good. The idea of blindfolding someone, or a battle cry, anything that a person isn't used to can disrupt their concentration to the point where they cannot tap into their magical needs. with the Elenium side of it being a formal request of a god to loan out power to specifically perform task "X" in their own language. makes it harder for someone who ISN'T a follower of a god to perform magic. (and those who can't learn the language either)

 

[YuYus dumber Brother]

Glad you liked it Talysia.
Kalten is the unsung hero for me. You just know he is behind you covering and throwing a jab through here and there.
WIth using the language i remember in Diamond throne when Sparhawk made the roses. Sephrenia told him how close he was to filling his hands with a snake, simplky because of pronounciation. So on a battle field Mandor on his charger, Barak with sword and axe, Throw in Ulath and Bevier with the lochaber, oh and throw in Belgarion with his magic and a big flaming sword. Forget pronounciation, i'll forget what i wanted to say. The only thing going through my mind at that moment is 'quick feet quick feet'

 

[Talysia]

Oh, I definitely agree about Kalten. One of the best characters in the Elenium/Tamuli.

Language is another good point, though. If you wanted to use magic in a very frantic fight, then you'd have to be more than fluent - you'd have to think in that language, too (as Spehrenia points out, I think). If you got flustered and forgot the words, then...

 

[ghost8772]

I think Eddings' made their point rather well about Kalten, he might not be the most sophisticated person in the world, he has a loose interpretation of the entire concept of reading, writing and spelling, and languages aren't his thing, but put him in a fight and he will excel.

 

[YuYus dumber Brother]

I giggled like a pre teen girl when i read the part where he spelt 6 letter word and all six were wrong. When asked what it was Vanion said 'His own name'. had to stop reading for while cause every time i tookup the book that part stood out and i started again.

But yes when it comes ot a fight sephrenia can stand a few feet away and do her best to protect me and my kind. But right on my back i want Kalten, swinging away with his broadsword. Bevier on my left with that dreadfull lochaber and to my right ulath with his axe.
In fact, place Tynian in front of me too with his broad sword and i'll be happy.

 

[Talysia]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to laugh like that at that part of the book.