"2 Basic plots" - where did this Meme originate from?

[TB303]

Hi people,
most of you are probably familiar with the saying that there are X number of basic plots.

I'm referring specifically to the version that states “2” basic plot lines:
A man goes out on a journey, and a stranger coming to town (which some add are two different perspectives on the same plot really).

I am an MA student in London and wish to use this quote to open my thesis, but in order to do this I must reference it, and so am trying to find the origin of this idea (Meme).
I tried searching Google but all I managed to find are more mentions of this notion stating that “some say” with out any specific attribution.

I would be grateful for any information or ideas you may have,

Thanks!

 

[Urien]

Some argue there are seven plots. Try this weighty tome:

The Seven Basic Plots by Christopher Booker.

 

[Green]

I have often been told of the 6/7/8 basic plots. I'm sure the book referenced above is full of tasty tidbits

I'm afraid I can't help you with your 2 basic plot problem, because I think many plots can be broken down into this structure (and as you say, it seems they are the same thing on a basic level).

But good luck - if you can make some argument for the two, I would be very interested in it. All this theory stuff is always a pleasure to read, even if it proves my own stories are anything but original. Please post back

PS - you stole the 2000th thread off me, you git

 

[j d worthington]

I'm not sure you'll be able to trace the origins of such... sort of like tracing the origin of various things in fairy tales which have existed, in one form or another, at least as long as written literature, and most likely as long as oral storytelling. Certainly the ones you describe were used by Homer, and in stories in the Bible, as well as darned near every mythology out there.

 

[TB303]

People,
Thanks for the feedback,

I must insist that there is a source for this Meme.
We have to dig deeper...

thanks!

 

[flynx]

I read somewhere that there is actually only the one plot: Man falls in hole, gets out of hole.

 

[j d worthington]

People,
Thanks for the feedback,

I must insist that there is a source for this Meme.
We have to dig deeper...

thanks!

I'll be very interested in what you dig up, I must admit, but I don't think this is one that can be tracked down. What you're describing here goes as far back as the Gilgamesh Epic, with Gilgamesh's travels and the arrival of Enkidu -- in other words, it's as old as storytelling itself. To track down something like this, you'd have to find out the first storyteller who used it in oral sources -- an impossibility; and, frankly, it's likely based even further on traveler's tales of hunters searching after food and going outside the usual parameters, and the meeting of different tribes due to the need of hunter/gatherer societies to always be moving "their grounds" for resources. Possibly the second is from the establishment of an early agricultural tribe, and the introduction of a member from another tribe, but most likely they're coeval in origin. The more simple the statement of a meme, the older it is likely to be, until its origins really do get lost in the mists of time -- but all such primitive memes date back long before the advent of writing, even (most likely) before the cave paintings, and in the very earliest oral sources. It's simply part of our mythopoeic nature.

 

[Culhwch]

Maybe I'm simple but it seems to me he doesn't need to track down the very origins, but rather just find a scholarly source - ie a book on storytelling or plots - somewhere where it is written down so that he can attribute it at the start of his thesis....

 

[j d worthington]

I am an MA student in London and wish to use this quote to open my thesis, but in order to do this I must reference it, and so am trying to find the origin of this idea (Meme).
I tried searching Google but all I managed to find are more mentions of this notion stating that “some say” with out any specific attribution.

Perhaps, Culhwch, but that line about "and so am trying to find the origin of this idea" seems to me to indicate otherwise. Perhaps it's just the wording that gave that impression; though "I must insist that there is a source for this Meme", rather than "a source citing this Meme", also seems to indicate that, I'd think. Perhaps if the original poster would clarify? Are you looking, perhaps, for a source for that quotation dealing with the meme? That may be something that can be tracked down, or it may not; but it's likely to take some digging to do it. As for the memes themselves: I'm sure there are plenty of scholarly sources that cite them, but as far as one attributing specific origins, they're going to be on very thin ice, for the reasons stated above.

 

[TB303]

Maybe I'm simple but it seems to me he doesn't need to track down the very origins, but rather just find a scholarly source - ie a book on storytelling or plots - somewhere where it is written down so that he can attribute it at the start of his thesis....

Thanks mate, that's exactly what I'm after,
I need to find a qoute - i.e. when someone first described this meme in academic literature.

Thanks people you are very helpful, I know it's somewhere out there...

Thanks,

 

[j d worthington]

Okay... the way it was phrased, I had completely misinterpreted what you were after. Here's a little something that may help:

Google Answers: The Seven Main Plots in All of Literature = ???

Don't know if you've looked any of this up before or not, but it's a place to start....

 

[PenDragon]

The "Two Plots" earliest origin is from Aristotle's "Poetics" (350 BC).

 

[TB303]

The "Two Plots" earliest origin is from Aristotle's "Poetics" (350 BC).

Really? Do you have a reference or a qoute for that?

thanks!

 

[PenDragon]

I've just noticed the stranger comes to town and man goes on a journey part of your first post (which I skimmed on first read) so Aristotle might not help, but 'The Poetics' is worth a google.

Aristotle's two plots are comedy (in the end everyone gets married and lives happily everafter) and Tragedy (in the end everyone dies, horribly, sometimes twice).

Not sure if you will be able to find an original qoute for the stranger comes to town, man goes on a journey plots, I've seen those tow mentioned in a few books/articles before but never with any attribution.

 

[RAGordon]

Interesting idea, there being only two types of plots...I'm sorry I can't help you out with a source on that one.

I just felt the need to post here because I hadn't heard the term meme since my undergrad days reading Dawkins, Dennett, and Blackmore - brought back some memories Since you seem quite fond of the term I should give a little warning that many people who start using it to refer to everything often overlook. The idea of a meme is that the replicator, although evolving, is essentially the same thing in the minds of all those who receive and propogate it. However, even though two people may appear to be sharing the same concept - it is rarely the case that the two actually have a similar understanding of that 'meme'...thereby breaking down the power of the meme as an actual 'thing' that spreads. Although it is easy to track 'memes' when you are talking about things like advertising jingles (everyone has the same one) - when you start talking about conceptual things memetic theory starts becoming a lot harder to justify because of the inconsistencies in how people internalise concepts. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest drawbacks in Dawkin's latest book The God Delusion where he is trying to argue that religion is a memetic virus. Very few people in reality relate to the metaphysical world the same - even though they may use the same words to describe it....this is why we have the idea that true religious experience cannot be communicated (and therefore isn't a meme).

Sorry to go off on a tangent - I just couldn't help it Memetic theory is very interesting and quite illuminating in many ways, but using it as an overarching theory of everything in the mind can be very misleading - particularly at an MA level.