Who knows about Jon if R+L=J

[Christyboyrebel]

At the risk of sounding like a friggin algebra lecture i'd just like to raise this point (probably should've used my earlier thread for both but hey, im new here- gimme a chance)

I was just explaining this theory, which i cant help but think of as fact (I know i shouldnt but its just lodged in there), to a friend trying to sound all knowledgable. He quickly replied that this isnt much use 'cus theres no-one alive who knows about it. I know theres probably someone glaringly obvious who im forgetting about but i bow down to your knowledge guys- sock it to me!

 

[Werthead]

Howland Reed was there and helped Eddard demolish the Tower of Joy, so Howland knows what's going on, but he's in Greywater Watch at the moment. Barristan Selmy, as one of Rhaegar's friends (although not a close one), probably would have known if Lyanna was pregnant but not more than that, and certainly not who the child is.

Wylla, Edric Dayne's wetnurse, probably knows about the situation as well if Eddard is using her as a cover story. She's in Starfall.

 

[Boaz]

Varys as the Master of Whispers for Aerys II, probably knows something. And if Varys knows, then Magister Illyrio probably knows as well.

Ashara Dayne might have known also. Now, is she really dead?

 

[Koopa]

unless he goes tolkien(or whatever book it was in) i doubt it i mean she jumped of a waterfall/cliff if i remember correct

 

[Leer Baratheon]

Varys most likely knows about R+L=J from the letter Ned wrote to Jon. I'm pretty sure Ned mentioned it in that letter.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think the pieces would be easy to put together if someone could ask the people the right question....

Wylla--all she knows is Ed showed up with a child after the rebellion....the Daynes household staff would know that Ashara was never pregnant....Howland Reed would likely know the entire story, but then again maybe Ned just told him nothing....a little "mind you own buisness" from yer liege lord holding a bloody sword goes a long way. I think he would have told Howland the truth but queerer things have happened.

Ned wouldnt tell Wylla where he got the baby, only that he had it. Dontcha just want to run up there yerself and be all like...."hey butler, was Ashara Dayne ever pregnant"....

I think all the misleading stories are natural products of court gossip and the like. I mean, without a definite crime to accuse Ned of they fill in the blanks. I have to assume he stayed a while in the Dayne-lands so the child would be well for travelling and maybe heal up himself. Any number of people would be curious, but Ned stonewalled em Im sure, not being skilled enough to lie....but he didnt stop em when the rumors spread. Leastways thats how I would have played it out.

 

[Werthead]

Varys most likely knows about R+L=J from the letter Ned wrote to Jon. I'm pretty sure Ned mentioned it in that letter.

Ned never wrote the letter. He asked Varys what would happen if he hypothetically wrote a letter to Jon and Varys said he'd read it. Thus Ned never wrote it. He'd have been crazy to have exposed the secret (whatever it is) like that.

 

[MacNeal]

This is my first post here and I want to start off by saying I am glad I found this forum. My wife and I are fans of the series and there are some very knowledgeable posters on here that have added some fresh insights.

This theory to me seems very plausible, but as with all fiction one never knows completely until the writer commits himself on paper. To say the least Martin left Jon’s parental door very wide open, as well as the whole Lyanna - Rhaegar scenario. I am not certain though that the 2 are connected.

I will cover the latter first: Anytime Robert brings up Lyanna Ned's mental response is always a sort of sadness/disappointment that Robert still has such strong feelings toward Rhaegar even after so many years have passed since he had been slain. The only thing I can think of to explain this is that at some point after the fact Ned had come to understand that all was not as Robert perceived it to be in this matter. Perhaps it was just another move in the game of thrones for someone to have Robert think that it was Rhaegar that killed Lyanna.
After reading the last book it would not surprise me if Cersei killed Lyanna, and as usual her evil deed that she committed to hopefully achieve her selfish ends (she wanted Rhaegar not Robert to be her King) backfires with unintended consequences. I.e. Robert is led to believe it was Rhaegar and kills him... Now I have read the series twice and I still do not remember or understand everything, so if there is a passage that someone can bring forward where Robert definitely thinks about Rhaegar actually killing Lyanna, and not him just thinking about Robert perceiving that Rhaegar killed her I would definitely stand corrected. However reading page 43 and 44 of the first book where Robert and Ned are at here grave it is odd that Martin tell the reader exactly who killed Brandon (Aerys) but in the next paragraph does not tell the reader how Lyanna died and who killed her. It could be a simple narrative device to simply forestall letting the reader know the whole Robert- Rhaegar conflict until Robert brings it up a few paragraphs later, but I do not think so. Also when Robert talks about dreaming of killing Rhaegar every night on the next page (44) Ned does not know what to say. He never says: "you avenged Lyanna" or something to that effect. He just lets it hang out there as if there is something not quite right.
Also Lyanna makes Ned promise her something: "Promise me. Promise me Ned", but the reader does not get to know what it was that she wanted Ned to promise her. I assume he made and kept that promise. It could be any number of things I suppose, by high up on my list of possibilities is "That Robert does not find out the entire truth" or "that you will take care of my child and raise him at winterfell".

As far as Jon goes I agree with the poster who pointed out that Ned never confirms that Jon is his *******. He just lets them assume. It is mentioned about his guilt about how he "shamed Cat", but that shame could be just having everyone think that he had a ******* and bringing him home... etc. Now some of the posts here seem to imply that R+L=J is a fact proven by a letter Ned wrote, and not simply a theory. If so please direct me to the passage in the book, or the thread where this is discussed..

Thanks and I welcome any constructive comments, and brace myself for the not so constructive comments.

 

[Culhwch]

Alright, no need to shout...

 

[Leer Baratheon]

Well, I think the strongest evidence for R+L=J comes from Dany's vision in ACoK. She sees a "blue rose growing in a chink on a wall of ice." I've never seen anyone refute that point, or give other suggestions as to what that might imply.

Ned never wrote the letter. He asked Varys what would happen if he hypothetically wrote a letter to Jon and Varys said he'd read it. Thus Ned never wrote it. He'd have been crazy to have exposed the secret (whatever it is) like that.

Hm, my memory must be playing tricks on me, then. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Somebloke]

As for who killed Lyanna, surely she died in childbirth? His memory of her invloves a bloody bed; and for Jon's birth to have made any sense he would have had to have been born just prior to Ned's decision to announce his bastardry.

 

[Boaz]

MacNeal, Lyanna died after Rhaegar. We don't know how long after, but judging by travel times in the series I assume Rhagaer to have died at least two weeks before Lyana.

Here is my synopsis of the events surrounding their deaths.

Robert and Eddard defeat the Targaryen army at the Trident where Robert kills Rhaegar in single combat. Eddard takes control of the rebel van and pushes towards King's Landing. Eddard arrives just as Tywin Lannister is pillaging the city. Eddard challenges Jaime at the Iron Throne and claims it for Robert. Robert arrives with the main host and Tywin presents him with the bodies of Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. Robert and Eddard quarrel about the killing of infants and Eddard takes off with the army. Eddard heads south to Storm's End and relieves Stannis from the clutches of Mace Tyrell thus ending all armed resistance to Robert I. Eddard then takes six companions and rides for the Tower of Joy. I assume the Tower of Joy is somewhere along the Dornish-Highgarden border, but I'm not sure. Eddard and his men face off with Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and another member of the Kingsguard (I forget his name). Only Eddard and Howland Reed survive the encounter. Eddard immediately rushes in the tower to find Lyanna dying in a bed of blood. Eddard promises Lyanna something and then she dies.

Did Rhaegar kill Lyanna? If he physically hurt her, then he did it at least a month before she died. Lingering in critical condition for thirty days is a bad way to go. Medically speaking, I don't know if a person could hemorrage and die a month later. Any medical professionals out there wan to comment on this? The most convenient excuse for all the blood is that it had been at least six months from the time that Lyanna disappeared until Ned found her, so Rhaegar had more than enough time to have impregnated her and she died from complications in childbirth.

But I don't think Robert wanted revenge for Rhaegar killing Lyanna. Remember when he and Ned quarrel over assassinating Dany? Robert goes ballistic about how Rhager raped Lyanna a hundred times. Lyanna was Robert's betrothed and he held her up as the ideal woman, but Rhaegar took all that away. I think Robert is still mad because his true love died and he got stuck in a joyless marriage with the nastiest woman in Westeros... and I think that he secretly knows that Lyanna went willingly to Rhaegar, that they were happy together, that Lyanna gave Rhaegar her love. Why else did Rhaegar to his "Tower of Joy"?

 

[Jeroam]

Always wonderful to see new people on the boards. Always great to see more and more fans enjoying Martin's work. Always wonderful to repost the same points on the same old debates on the same old topics every 8 months.

As far as your timeline goes, its what I had put together also, with 2 exceptions. I think Lyanna and Rhaeger had met, and fallen in love long before the tournament, (Harrenhall - Jamie's white cloak, knight of the laughing tree) hence he crowns her queen of beauty. There's also a line somewhere in "Game of Thrones" in a Ned chapter about Lyanna saying Robert was a great guy but would never change (the sleeping around), more indication that she had chosen Rhaeger over Robert. Also, Daenerys has a line in "Clash of Kings," something about Rhaeger fighting for the woman he loved, then falling at the Trident.
The other thing: Given all that we know about the open decadence of the Dornish court, I'm pretty sure Elia not only knew about Rhaeger's love affair, but would have encouraged it. (Oberyn told Tyrion that Ellaria wanted Cersei.) Maybe Lyanna liked it, refused to go back and marry Robert, and that's why Brandon and Rickard were done in. They didn't "run into Aery's," they were demanding Rhaeger return Lyanna. Even if she was happy and in love, her Lord father would've never understood it. Lyanna was meant to be the Lady of a great house, not a concubine. "No one makes demands on the Dragon!" everyone is killed, the war breaks out.

Next bit: who knew what. The last living member of the Kingsguard who would've known why those three, the best three, the most famous three, were at the Tower of Joy instead of the Trident protecting Rhaeger or in Kings Landing protecting Aery's is Selmy Barriston. Jaimie probably knows, but then he was the low man on the totem pole. It is doubtful he was trusted completely with everything.

The maesters called it the War of Five Kings, and they were mistaken. I think its all still the aftermath of Robert's Rebellion. Who sits the Iron Throne consumes most of the books, but I don't think that that's the driving story arc. The struggle against winter, the Others, that's the overall story arc and the series will end when its been decided. The secondary driving story arc is the mystery of Jon's parents/House Stark because it will tie into the struggle against winter. We will learn the truth, probably when Daeny brings the dragons home. The third tier story arc, the one that binds these first three books together providing motivation to the characters and influencing their choices would be 'who killed Jon Arryn.' I think if there had been as much time between Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, as there has been between Storm of Swords and Feast for Crows, these message boards would be dominated by Arryn's murder and not Jon's parents

 

[MacNeal]

Alright, no need to shout...

My bad... I used MSword to write it up and I put it on a large font to actually be able to read it on my small laptop screen. I believe shouting though is using ALL CAPS, so technically while the large font may be too much for you it was not shouting...

 

[Somebloke]

My bad... I used MSword to write it up and I put it on a large font to actually be able to read it on my small laptop screen. I believe shouting though is using ALL CAPS, so technically while the large font may be too much for you it was not shouting...

Welcome to the forum by the way.

 

[MacNeal]

Well, I think the strongest evidence for R+L=J comes from Dany's vision in ACoK. She sees a "blue rose growing in a chink on a wall of ice." I've never seen anyone refute that point, or give other suggestions as to what that might imply.

Ok, what does the blue rose symbolize? Please fill me in... also your reference to it reminded me of a passage from AGOT:

Pg 631 (pardon any typos I make. they are mine and not Martin's for sure...

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke trembling in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of roses. She had loved the scent of winter roses.
"god save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

So if I follow where you are going with the blue rose in the ice wall= Jon, then Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue roses at the tournement also proves he is Jon's father, and the fact that the blue roses cut Ned showed that there were dire consequences ahead for the Stark family including Lyanna?
I find this very interesting and would appreciate any information on what exactly blue roses have to do with Jon or the Targaryen blood line....

 

[MacNeal]

Somebloke, thank you for your welcome.
Boaz and Jeroam, thank you for the very informative posts ont he timeline and the events involved.
I think even if Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant and she died as a result of the child birth he would hold him responsible. I am sure in his mind Lyanna would not have given herself willingly... I will repond more to your posts after I have looked into some of the points you bring up in more detail.. Thank you and feel free to throw any more information at me that you feel relates to this matter!

 

[Leer Baratheon]

Ok, what does the blue rose symbolize? Please fill me in...

Throughout AGoT it's repeated over and over that Lyanna loved blue roses. Read the AGoT Eddard chapter where Robert and Ned go down to visit Lyanna in the crypts of Winterfell. Eddard says something like "...Lyanna was...fond of blue roses."

Also, during the Tower of Joy scene, where Ned and his faithful friends killed Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent -- the three member's of the Kingsguard -- Ned remembers there being blue rose petals flying through the air. Also, Ned found Lyanna on a bed of blood and roses.

Basically EVERY scene where Ned mentions Lyanna, or thinks about her, there is mention of blue roses. So a blue rose (a piece of Lyanna) growing (Jon snow is becoming a valuable member of the Night's Watch) on a chink in a wall of ice (THE wall) is tremendous evidence for R+L=J.