George Martin: Clash of Kings

[Brian G Turner]

!!!!!SPOILERS!!!!


So I'm reading this one now and fair enjoying it. I'm a little disturbed to see the introduction of new Point of View characters, because I'm yet to be convinced that anything they bring to the story couldn't instead be related by an existing character view, describing events - ie, the theological movement taking Stannis, plus the Greyjoy uprising.

But, I guess it's simply a case of givnig a close view of events - I guess I'm just concerned that the new Points of Views distract from the established characters and their own experience of events.

The first Theon Greyjoy scene was funny, though - there was some great cultural and general details - men taking "fish wives" and also the scars of Robert Baratheon's catapults outside the rebuilt tower wall. However, there was the somewhat ridiculous notion of Theon receiving oral sex on a boat - and all the while the captain's daughter was doing that, he was expositioning for the reader on the history of the Greyjoys!! That was a bit silly.

But, overall, it's nice to see the characters back. Nice to see Arya finally playing some significance by hooking up with the ******* son plotline, and Bran is becoming more interesting.

 

[erickad71]

Let me know what you think of this one when you get done with it Brian.

 

[Brian G Turner]

***** SPOILERS! ****


I've just got past the death of Renly - that was very disappointing. The whole "shadow warrior" element seems very "deus es machina". If it's that easy to get rid of enemies, why not against the Lannisters, too?

Also, Arya seems to have become completely divorced from the plot again. I have no idea why we are following her story, as she's not contributing anything to the overall events at the moment - she's a separate book, that for some reason is woven into this novel.

The whole Greyjoy plot element seems forced and pointless - there were a number of expositions that suddenly rushed through placing the Iron Lands and Greyjoys into the bigger picture.

Overall, there's some great writing and the characters are engaging as ever - but it's frustrating that he's not focussing on the general plot so much, and it's making a lot of the seemingly important characters seem irrelevant - Robb is a complete non-entity for starters, and Daenerys seems to be completely irrelevant again - she goes through trials and tribulations that seem completely unrelated to the actual overall plotlines of the books.

Also - is any of Ned's family actually grieving for him? There seems to be a couple of points where someone is sad for Ned dying - but his death seems to have touched everyone politically more than emotionally.

Overall, enjoying it, but there are reservations as before.

 

[Lacedaemonian]

Robb's omission is a strange thing, as he is clearly one of the main characters and has some good scenes. Perhaps George thought that Robb would distract the reader from Jon, who is clearly the main man. Watch George kill off Jon in the opening chapter of a Feast of Crows! However the POV really made the books for me Brian, the fact that you get to several perspectives of the same story is a fantastic treat.

 

[Brian G Turner]

******************SPOILERS!!!!!******************









Well, I finally finished “Clash of Kings”, and although I had given George Martin the benefit of the doubt regarding my criticisms over “Game of Thrones”, unfortunately many of those same criticisms apply here – and even more so.

George Martin is superb at writing character and experiences of events – but his structuring and plot development has a lot to be desired. Most specifically, his use of Point of View character is terrible, and we spend long periods of the book languishing in the Points of View of characters who are and have been irrelevant to the immediate story.

Although Daenerys is obviously building up to something, her current plotline just reads as completely irrelevant. Do we really care if she met with Pyat Pree or Xaro? You could remove every Daenerys chapter so far and still not have affected anything significant.

The same with Bran and Jon – both are obviously destined for importance at some later point – but after 2 volumes and nearly 2000 pages, neither has done anything of any particular note from their own Point of View.

Whilst Jon is obviously a pivotal character being groomed, and Bran probably so, the latter has done nothing in particular. You could remove his POV from the books and still be none the poorer for it - even Jon hasn't yet needed a POV - all he's done so far is wander around past the Wall, and learned to see with his wolf (exactly as Bran had done).

And although the Arrya events are also well-written, as a character she has contributed nothing to the actual story.

Possibly the worst is Catelyn – she does not actually take part in the story – she has merely moved from place to place observing. She sees Robb has an army, she sees Lord Renly die, she sees Edmure skirmish Lord Tywin’s men. But she doesn’y actually take part in the story.

It got worse with a couple of the other Point of View characters, which seemed tied in more with bad plot-writing than anything else.

Theon added absolutely nothing to the main story – he only ever presented a distraction and subplot that adds nothing to ASoFaI. Although well-written, the whole “Winterfell” action has been utterly irrelevant to the main plot of the coming hordes from the North and the fighting for the crown of the 7 kingdoms.

Davos was worst – he only existed to show Stannis turn into a zealot for the Lord of Light. However, in a rather terrible act of plot-writing, deus ex machina was invoked via sudden and inexplicable magic to kill Lord Renly and the lord protecting Robert’s ******* there. However, despite these acts, when he finally marches on Kings Landing he suddenly – and inexplicably – turns away from his new religious convictions and use of magic to kill major opponents, and ends up losing for it. The whole device reeked of bad plot development – as if Martin wrote himself into two corners, and could only write himself out of them by invoking magic in one, and overtly avoiding it in the other.

And – just as in the first book in the “A Song of Fire and Ice” series, George R R Martin finishes off the climax and the main battle by following the point of view of a killer dwarf!! Somehow the use of Tyrion to show the battle scenes almost seems to suggest parody. Using Tyrion charging as like a knight to encapsulate Martin's mass battles suggests poor plotting on his part, rather than something we can conveniently suspend disbelief for.

I really enjoyed the character writing in this book and the previous – but I am simply too frustrated with his inability to focus on the actual story and the Point of View of the actual characters who are actually important to that story. Why do we see Catelyn’s view but never Robb’s? Why not Stannis instead of Davos? Why Tyrion in battle and never Lord Tywain?

I’ve read a lot of criticisms about how Robert Jordan has lost the plot in the Wheel of Time series, and I can see all of those criticisms applying here. The characters are good – they are very engaging and often completely immersing. But there’s such a poor lack of focus, and poor development of story – and how the actual main part of that story is viewed – that I don’t think I’ll bother reading any further.

The characters are great, even when seemingly irrelevant to the story – but, ultimately, I read a book because I want to read a story, and story told close to the events. Killer dwarfs and grieving widows who happen to wander into every intrigue, while children run around having their own unconnected little adventures - it just fails my demands as a reader.

2c.

(Ducks and runs for cover).

PS: No way will Jon be dead in the final printed edition - sounds more like a marketing device than plot.

 

[erickad71]

Well, I think you are wrong...but we all have our own opinions, of course. No need to duck for cover.

I'm not going to argue any points with you...except possibly where you said Jon had learned to see through his wolf. He has seen through his wolf's eyes, but I don't think he actually realizes that is what happened. Or at least is not admitting it to himself. I will also admit that I don't believe the Theon chapters were neccesary...but that's all you get.

...and Jon better not die in A Feast for Crows!!! ...although I seriously doubt he will...

 

[LadyFel]

Brian, go read the third book, you're too far in to quit now

 

[Brian G Turner]

Heh, I love the characters, but I'm left with a feeling that a great deal of what I'm reading in the story is actually extraneous to the story. And the way he's resolved a few threads seemed very rushed and ill-thought out. Maybe the release of Feast of Crows will kick myself into catching up, but for the time being I just don't have the enthusiasm to pick up the next one.

 

[Lacedaemonian]

Very scathing review mate, but I agree with most of what you wrote. It took huge discipline on my part not to skip certain chapters, especially those concerning Daenerys. However, I did enjoy some of the chapters regarding the seemingly pointless characters, and the witness perspective really worked for me. I think that he decided Robb would not have his own chapter because we would all simply fall in love with him and ignore the more important characters. I was fairly uncomfortable with the Stannis storyline too.

That asides these books stand head and shoulders above anything from the sci-fi genre and most other genres for that matter. Perhaps you are losing your childish delight of all things magical?

 

[Brian G Turner]

And there was me expecting a huge tongue-lashing from you!!

 

[LadyFel]

It took huge discipline on my part not to skip certain chapters, especially those concerning Daenerys.

I DID skip them the first time I read the book... Catelyn too, she was just too much...I read them in full about a year later before I lent them to my boyfriend, just in case there was a discussion and I'd missed something crucial...

Needless to say, I didn't miss anything but I found it got much better in book 3...

 

[cymric]

red wedding wacth out for the red wedding damn the freys to rot in hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brian G Turner]

Wrong book - that's Storm of Swords.

 

[erickad71]

red wedding wacth out for the red wedding damn the freys to rot in hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May I just say that is the most jaw-dropping scene in a book that I have ever read...literally. It took my breath away...I reread that part at least three times, I thought my eyes were decieving me.

Walder Frey is surely doomed...evil, spiteful little man that he is.

 

[LadyFel]

Yeeeees...Walter Frey is a total piece of ***** if I may say so...

But the scene that got me most is the very LAST chapter of A Storm of Swords...my boyfriend actually called me in the middle of the night when he finished the book and wanted to be reassured he hadn't just imagined it...

Things just get curiouser and curiouser and I LOVE IT!!

 

[Brian G Turner]

I keep thinking about the characters - though the book has flaws and am I'm not happy with the structurnig, Martin is very clever at character creation and writing immediate scenes. I'm fairly convinced that I'll buy the follow on pretty soon if I'm not careful, even though I'm aware of a couple of key plot elements involving Robb and Joffrey (no spoilers given).

 

[LadyFel]

I'm aware of a couple of key plot elements involving Robb and Joffrey (no spoilers given).

Ummmmm...yeah...that's what I thought, too...