New around here and a quick opinion.

[Dave289]

Hey all, new to these boards but a longtime fan of the series, and twitching for ADwD like everybody else..

Anyway, am I the only one that hates to see a good bad guy go down? Two examples of what I mean:

First, Gregor Clegane. Yeah, the guy has zero redeeming qualities. But cripes, what a great antagonist this guy is! Huge, fearsome, and without a speck of human decency. His fight scene with the Red Viper was probably my favorite 'battle' from the books. Okay, he deserves whatever's coming to him (even beyond thickened manticore venom and the tender ministrations of Lord Quyburn). But I, for one, will be sorry to see him go. And I'll feel cheated if he comes back as some kind of undead Mountain, that doesn't count.

Speaking of the Mountain that Rides, I also was very attached to his erstwhile Lord, Tywin Lannister. I think I just loved the way they described him, the force of personality and the ability to 'turn your bowels to water' with his pale green gold-flecked eyes. The epitome of somebody you just don't mess with. Unless you're that damned Imp, I guess. Anyway, I hated his death every bit as much as I hated Ned Stark's, and I LOVED Ned.

Oh well, just a couple of rambling comments. Thanks for listening.

Dave

 

[Weasel Soup]

Welcome to the boards

Always happy to listen, and please continue to contribute.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Hey all, new to these boards but a longtime fan of the series, and twitching for ADwD like everybody else..

Anyway, am I the only one that hates to see a good bad guy go down? Two examples of what I mean:

First, Gregor Clegane. SNIPPED

Speaking of the Mountain that Rides, I also was very attached to his erstwhile Lord, Tywin Lannister.SNIPPED

Oh well, just a couple of rambling comments. Thanks for listening.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I loved the deaths at first then felt kinda regretful afterwards. After reading what Gregor did to the girl in the tavern with his mates, I wanted to see him get what was coming to him. Preferably in the most humiliating way possible. I was mostly sad he took the Red Viper with him! Mind you, the Red Vipers brief appearance has probably made him far more fascinating than if he had hung around and we had learnt all his faults.
But with Gregor..I see what you mean - now there was a man who could have stood up to a dragon. And I would have loved to see more interaction between him and Sandor. And of course, now we will never know (first hand) what happened when Gregor met Elia, so to speak.

I'm sorta torn over Tywin's death - I'm glad for Cersei (cos I like her, despite all her faults), glad for Tyrion getting the last word, but ASOIAF has lost such a formidable strategist. That has ensured the Lannisters fall from power, IMO.
I really wanted to see what Tywin would have done to combat Dany (if she ever gets to Westeros), and how he would have played his hand against all the other enemies, like Stannis and Victarion.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

You know I loved the way two particular death changed the way youre forced to look at Georgies books. Traditionally the Mountain would have lost right? Fantasy dogma dictates that Oberyn ( an intriguing and righteously motivated character) will win. The scene was set up for him to win, and when he didnt it really set my expectations on their ears.

The other character would be Ned but thats not germane to this thread.

I felt Tywin was a payback for the killing Oberyn. We had to reestablish the typical fantasy pattern so we could upset it again....

 

[Dave289]

Mr. FC;

Re:Tywin

Yeah, exactly. He was the only Lannister with a level head, excepting perhaps Kevan, AND their military/political brains. Say goodbye to House Lannister, that's my theory.

Off topic, HUGE H.P. Lovecraft fan here, so love your handle.









Dave

 

[Boaz]

I hated seeing Tywin, the Viper (yes, I think he was a bad guy) and the Mountain bow out so soon. But Martin established early on, with Ned's death, that he will give us unexpected turns.

The only other villains to leave too soon (or just at the right time from GRRM's perspective) were Vargo Hoat (I can't get enough of "Kingthlayer, you are my captivth" and "Thaphireth!"); and Renly (reminded me of Leslie Howard's portrayal of Sir Percy Blakeney, aka the Scarlet Pimpernel; They seek him here, they seek him there... Those Frenchies seek him everywhere... Is he in heaven? Is he in hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel!")

Three villains who died at just the right time were Viserys, Ygritte and Rattleshirt.

In my opinion there are also villains who have stayed around too long. The one in most desperate need of disappearing is Catelyn. She needed to go right after Ned... and she needed to stay dead. (Sorry, but we have not done any really good Cat bashing in quite a long time here... it needed to be said.) Craster overstayed his welcome also... not by much, but it was definitely time he left. I must also say that Arianne is pushing the limit. If she went, I'd never miss her. Finally, I come to Joffrey. Joff needed to go before Ned, but that would have been too convenient, I guess. Good riddance.

 

[Centurion]

I was very dissapointed when the red Viper died, i have to admit.
He was such an intrigueng, interesting and generally dangerous character, and i was almost as saddened at his early exit as i was of Ned's death.

Lord Tywin, well, i wanted him to die, but i wanted him to die more shamefully in public(i know, dying while taking a ***** is not exactely graceful...rather comical in the case of Lord Tywin Lannister.) I always thought he'd catch Jaime and Cersei fully engaged in their bedsport, with the Imp right behind him.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

SNIPPED
In my opinion there are also villains who have stayed around too long. The one in most desperate need of disappearing is Catelyn. She needed to go right after Ned... and she needed to stay dead. (Sorry, but we have not done any really good Cat bashing in quite a long time here... it needed to be said.) Craster overstayed his welcome also... not by much, but it was definitely time he left. I must also say that Arianne is pushing the limit. If she went, I'd never miss her. Finally, I come to Joffrey. Joff needed to go before Ned, but that would have been too convenient, I guess. Good riddance.

OTOH, Vargo's end was WONDERFUL - I couldn't have imagined a better and more appropriate death for him! There was someone who really deserved to be on the end of the Mountain's wrath
I like Arianne, but she was introduced rather too late for me to get invested in her - it feels a bit rushed to incorporate her into the scenario now.I keep remembering her and thinking.."oh...yeah...that woman who wears low cut dresses all the time".
That said, I'll probably change my mind about her after the next two books.

I am actually cool with Catelyn's continuing existence, because she operates as a dark mirror to the other Starks. I also like her as a paralell to Cersei's type of destructive mothering. I love the fact that she's undead - it speaks to me about the 'personal vengeance' factor of war. Her undying anger also speaks to me about the sense of entitlement the nobles display - the commoners lose family members in horrible ways, regularly, and they have to suck it up and get on with life - nobles get to remember and brood over their loss for generations (speaking broadly), taking it out on whomever they can. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up as a resident ghoul for a few hundred years, eventually forgetting even her children's names, pulling down stray travelers, becoming a dark fairy tale, still powered by the furious need to kill and share her misery.
That being said, she's lost her whole family (in her mind, atleast), when she lived for her kids - I can feel a little sympathy with her slide into madness.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Mr. FC;

Re:Tywin

Yeah, exactly. He was the only Lannister with a level head, excepting perhaps Kevan, AND their military/political brains. Say goodbye to House Lannister, that's my theory.

Off topic, HUGE H.P. Lovecraft fan here, so love your handle.


Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks! Yes, I like a bit of Lovecraft - I find his writing style quite hilarious, but I can't deny the enduring power of his ideas and creations. Neil Gaiman has written a few short stories in homage to Lovecraft, using the same concepts, they're excellent.
Re the handle, mainly I like the idea of the hideous nameless horrors getting down and boogying. Hell, even Great Old Ones need to let their hair...err, tentacles, down sometimes.

An excellent touch by GRRM was to illustrate Tywin's background after he'd been cast as a 'bad guy'. Suddenly, hearing about his childhood humiliations as his father ran House Lannister into the ground and how every other house considered the Lannister's to be a laughing-stock - powerful stuff. It's not so easy to depise him anymore.

 

[Boaz]

Looks like FC got a new avatar for Christmas!

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Looks like FC got a new avatar for Christmas!

Certainly have! And a soft and cuddly one, at that.
You should see what I'm doing for Valentines Day!

Cthulhu Valentines

 

[Koopa]

Mr. FC;

Re:Tywin

Yeah, exactly. He was the only Lannister with a level head, excepting perhaps Kevan, AND their military/political brains. Say goodbye to House Lannister, that's my theory.

Off topic, HUGE H.P. Lovecraft fan here, so love your handle.

Dave

What about Tyrion, what about Jamie?
Besides we hardly know anout any of the other Lannisters.
We all know that Tyrion got what it takes, and the new Jamie seems good enough at it as well, from the moment He lost his hand he has be taking nothing but good decisions, mind you that i say this hating him, if he was not incestual all would have been in the westeros.

 

[Dave289]

Well, with Tyrion across the water, and Jaime having all these second thoughts about the meaning of life and honor, I still think House Lannister is about to take a serious nosedive. Unless, of course, Kevan can pull it together for a while. Still, Kevan is no Tywin, and I bet he'd be the first to admit it.











Just my thoughts
Dave

 

[TK-421]

Well, not sure the the role that Kevan will end of playing. He may end up following the Sparrows like his pathetic son.

If anyone will redeem House Lannister, it will be the most unlikely of all Lannisters: Tyrion. And he will do it from the back of a dragon.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Well, not sure the the role that Kevan will end of playing. He may end up following the Sparrows like his pathetic son.

If anyone will redeem House Lannister, it will be the most unlikely of all Lannisters: Tyrion. And he will do it from the back of a dragon.

OK, I can see that. But what does Tyrion owe to house Lannister? I suppose he could wipe out the existing members and start afresh with just himself.
I just have a hard time imagining Tyrion wanting to restore the Lannister name - he hates everyone bearing it, maybe even himself.

 

[TK-421]

More likely that Tyrion sees himself as the rightful heir to Casterly Rock. He said so to his dear papa. Dany is his only ticket to give him that if he will be loyal to her.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

More likely that Tyrion sees himself as the rightful heir to Casterly Rock. He said so to his dear papa. Dany is his only ticket to give him that if he will be loyal to her.

True. But that depends if he has much of value, and Dany can overcome her hatred of the Lannisters. If she's going to arrive in force in Westeros, why bother with co-opting legitimate heirs to her side to claim the various ancestral lands? Tyrion will have to make a very convincing case for himself. I have faith in Tyrion's silver tongue, but I don't see him as having a lot to offer, information-wise.
And yes, TK, I know you believe he'll bond with one of the dragons and prove his worth that way. Still, he'll have to get past Dany first to do that.