Anyone with magazine publishing experience?

[Michael01]

When I posted the announcement about my forthcoming online magazine on Lulu, two members of the staff there raised some objections. Well, actually, one said she appreciated that I was honest about not being able to pay in the submission guidelines, but otherwise they had objections.

I think that their objections are legitimate - at least to a degree. The main reason is that they both actually have experience in the industry and are bound to know more about it than I do. I said as much during our discussion.

Their objections were as follow:

1. The industry will not recognize a "publishing credit" with a "free self-published magazine." So, if you publish a story in my magazine, it won't do you any good to mention it when you try to publish again.

2. I don't have the professional "qualifications" to do this work. Oh, I can write, and I know a good story when I read it, but I've never worked in the industry. Therefore, I am not familiar with the professional standards.

3. The writer should get paid (which really goes without saying, anyway).

All of these are very good points. However, my contention (and that of others with similar projects) is that projects of this nature present opportunities for growth that might not otherwise be available. They could -potentially - become the industry standards in the future (except the writing without pay part).

Besides, you have to start somewhere, right? I mean, suppose Edison had allowed himself to be discouraged from inventing the electric light because people kept saying we've already got perfectly good oil lanterns? I know the analogy is somewhat ambiguous, but the idea is that we want to try to break new ground.

However, since they are valid objections, I wondered what I could do to improve my magazine's chances of success. I posted a query to this effect on Lulu, but so far there are no replies, so I thought I'd try my luck here. Is there anyone here who may be able to offer some suggestions from an experienced point of view?

First, I assume it will take time to establish Tower of Light as a publishing credit, but does anyone have ideas about how I might accomplish this?

Second, what if - when the funding is available - I pay a professional editor to review the stories before I publish them? Or might there be inexpensive or even pro bono resources I can take advantage of now? Would such a strategy make a difference?

Finally, what if - instead of not paying the writer at all - I dig into the limited funds at my disposal and pay a nominal fee (until I'm able to pay more)?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

So far as I know, the only way that it counts as a "real" publishing credit is if you pay professional rates.

But if you can't afford to do that, there are plenty of other online magazines that don't pay for stories, so that would hardly make you unique. And since you won't be making money either (at least, I don't think that's what you are planning to do), it's not like you would be taking advantage of anyone.

But be aware that you're unlikely to be receiving much (or any) high quality writing. You may, with luck, get some stories that are pretty good though rough around the edges, but (and I speak from experience, having worked briefly for a magazine that paid 1/2¢ a word) be prepared to wade through a lot of really horrible writing before you even come to those diamonds in the rough.

You may increase the quantity of good stories you receive if you're open to reprints.

I believe that anyone who thinks projects like yours will be the industry standard in the future is deluding themselves. They're simply the equivalent of all those small press magazines produced on somebody's offset press in the basement, which have come and gone over the years. Except that more people can do them because the start-up costs are nil.

But there is nothing essentially wrong with these amateur publications, in print or online. The word amateur does, after all, come from a root-word meaning love. So long as you are producing your magazine for the love and joy of it, and the writers who contribute are doing the same thing, then why shouldn't you? It's only when the people involved pretend that they are offering writers a chance to be professionally published, or a great way to advance their careers, that these enterprises become shady.

 

[iansales]

Back in the eighties and nineties, there was a strong small press sf magazine scene in the UK. Only a handful of the magazines paid for submissions - usually, all you got was a free copy of the issue. Quite a few well-known writers got their start in those mags - Stephen Baxter, for example, was first published in Dream Magazine, a small press mag. Even if you weren't paid, you still counted it as publication. Although I do wonder how many of those early apprentice works have dropped off people's cv's...

 

[Michael01]

Thank you, Teresa, for the advice, encouragement, *and* criticism. Okay, I won't succumb to *that* delusion anymore, but it's good to know that's it still possible to do *something* with this project.

However, I am hoping that the magazine will begin to produce at least a meager revenue in the long run, by adding advertisements to the site. If am able to make enough money from it in the future, I *will* pay for stories.

And thank you, too, iansales, for that remarkle bit of news!

 

[Simon Haynes]

I'm involved with Andromeda Spaceways Inflight Magazine, and while we don't pay pro rates we do pay enough to be a valid publishing credit.

It's not about the money though. It's all about how difficult it is to get published in any given market. Asimovs, Analog and F&SF are all but impossible to crack, with 800+ stories submitted per month and only 3 or 4 of those accepted. Therefore, publication in any one of them is a really big deal.

At Andromeda Spaceways we receive about 100 submissions per month, and of those we might buy 4 or 5. Not as hard to get in, not as much money, less famous ... a lesser credit.

And then you might have a website which posts everything received. I'm thinking of fan fiction sites, or a Yahoo group for people to share their fiction, not ezines or online magazines with editors. Everything submitted is posted online by the writers themselves, and therefore cannot be used as a publication credit.

In summary, the actual payment isn't that important. It's the exclusivity of the market.

 

[Michael01]

Thank you for that, Simon. That was very helpful. So there's a possibility writers may get some credit by publishing in Tower of Light, but it would be minimal? Likely, if I were an editor at Asimovs, etc., such a credit would hardly be worth my notice, but . . .

While I don't plan to publish everything I get, per se, it would help if I start getting some submissions! Although, I probably shouldn't be impatient, because it's only been two weeks since I made the announcement on various Web sites and such.

I was also wondering, as a result: Will writers be more inclined to submit their stories if Tower of Light offers a small payment?

 

[Brian G Turner]

However, my contention (and that of others with similar projects) is that projects of this nature present opportunities for growth that might not otherwise be available.

The really big problem is that a zine that offers no money offers no incentive for quality submissions, and additionally is usually lacking a business plan to actually generate such growth.

I think the criticisms made are very very valid - so to counter them you really need to address them.

If you do, what you'll immediately find is that you have costs and must generate profits, and unless the latter cover the former, you have something crashing down in flames.

I see lots of "ezines" on the net that publish any old crap, then disappear - the problem being that the owners, in having no real financial stake in the success of the site, have no real incentive to address the risk and cost of growth. Therefore they just fold.

Sure, there's nothing wrong with people publishing for fun in this manner - but on the one hand, there's little readership to appreciate it, and on the other, little credit - real or imagined - for any writers to gain from it.

I've always had it in my long-term pipe to set up an ezine on chronicles - but if and when we reach that point, I'll have a proper editor to view submissions, submissions will be paid for, and people will need to pay to read them. And that's a tough deal to make a success. Hence why I'm not pushing on that front yet.

Bottom line is - what can any such project:

1. Offer readers
2. Offer writers

There needs to be perceived value in all respects.

2c.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But Simon, the kind of exclusivity you are talking about (800+ submissions a month, only a handful accepted), always comes with professional rates of payment.

Michael, I was thinking in terms of credits that would qualify someone for membership in an organization like SFWA; I should have been thinking in broader terms.

But that hypothetical editor at Asimov's isn't going to give more favorable consideration to a story no matter how many credits, professional or otherwise, the writer has, unless those credits are such that they provide a fair degree of name recognition for the author. Basically, in terms of career building, credits only have significance if they're on a comparable level to the market you are trying to crack. And even so, with prior credits or without them, almost always the story still has to sell itself.

To answer your question: Yes, you would almost certainly get more submissions if you pay for stories, even if it's only a small sum. And if you are trying to build a reputation, semi-pro magazines garner more attention than non-paying or pays-in-copies.

Just to give you an idea of what SFWA considers a professional publication (and of course other organizations and individuals may have other definitions, but a lot of writers are looking for credits that will get them into SFWA) here are their requirements:


Payment for all works of fiction (other than reprints or serializations), either in advance of publication or on publication, at the rate of either (a) at least $2000 for a single work or (b) at least 5c/word
and
Must have published consistently for a period of at least one year before the market will be considered qualifying
and
Must have a print run or circulation of at least 1000 copies, or the equivalent in other media (e.g., demonstrated downloads in electronic media); and

Is not self-publication, vanity press, or other type of author-paid or fee-charging press, as demonstrated such as (1) by having published at least ten distinct works by different natural persons during the date range; and (2) by authors not having paid or been requested to pay fees or give consideration of any kind.

 

[Michael01]

Wow. Now we are really getting down to the nitty gritty here. I can't even begin to tell you all how much I appreciate everything you've shared. I'm working on new ideas already . . . especially about paying the writers!

If there's more, feel free to keep going. The more I learn the better.

 

[Simon Haynes]

The other thing I'd say is that I wouldn't expect a river of cash from advertising. I'm happy to reveal that Andromeda Spaceways, with 28 issues in print and all those eager writers chasing submission guidelines, still only manages about 100 unique visitors per day on average. You couldn't feed yourself on that, let alone writers.

 

[Michael01]

No, you couldn't get very far with that. I expected the earnings to be meager, but not that meager. I'll have to look into some other ideas . . .

 

[BookStop]

My husband had his own ezine for a while. It never made money, but for him that wasn't the point. He was doing for the love. He did pay authors and artists with a free advert spot or a token $10 payment. We seemed to get some very good submissions(a couple of awesome Chrons members too) along with a lot of stinkers. We even had a couple months where we got around 100 visitors a day due to Wade's interviews with GRRM and Kelley Armstrong. He really only gave it up because we hadn't the time or money to keep it going. It's still around though. He gave it to a friend who gave it a go, hoping to draw in more advertsising revenue, but....well, now a third person has it. Hopefully, he'll have more luck.

I wouldn't give up on the idea, I just wouldn't expect to make a living at it either. If you can break even, you've done a pretty fine job, and who knows where it can lead. Check out Ralan.com to see all the FortheLuv sites. They can't all be huge money losers I'd bet.

 

[Michael01]

Thank you, BookStop. I'll do that.

 

[ghyle]

I must admit that I've got a non-paying e-zine at the moment, close to the end of its second year. I am planning, next year, on paying for poetry, $5 US a poem (which is the going rate apparently).

As for the non-fiction, I am looking at getting referees, so that it is more stringent; Calenture is rare in that it is aiming towards an academic market interested in speculative poetry.

A good-ish rule of thumb is to look at how long a market has been operating. The idea is that older markets are more stable, more successful.

 

[lin robinson]

Hi Michael

I have worked in magazines as writer, editor and publisher for years and I admire your insanity for wanting to publish one. Just kidding: online magazines present almost none of the risk, expense and hassle of print publication. The questions you ask here are controversial ones and I am answering before reading your reponses because I'm almos certain to say different things than others and I don't want anybody to take it personally.

1. Not really true. A paid credit is more impressive, but anything good that you can show when applying or querying helps you cause, especially if you are new and lack credits. Everybody knows that some mags, especially startups don't pay at first (I have a note on that later) but online mags tend to draw more sneers for some reason, as if they weren't "real" publications. In fact, the work IS published. And it was selected. A wise writer would not try to con anybody about a credit. Just use the big advantage of online publication: being able to send a clickable URL to somebody, showing their work.
Let me suggest that you design your issues with that in mind: if you set it up so that URL changes after the new issue comes out, then you will mess up the clickabity that is a main thing you are offering your writer.

2. There are absolutely NO "qualifications" for publishing a magazine. I would hazard the guess that a slim minority of publishers have any writing or editing experience whatsoever. Editors are assumed to have writing/editing skills but it is not always true: they are sometimes essentialy marketing whizzes brought in to jazz things up. What "standards"? Yes, if want your magazine to look good and read good, you are going to have to step up. You can learn as you do. Hugh Hefner's first editorial job was at Playboy, okay? There is a chance that you will bring a fresh sensibility in, offsetting your unfamiliarity with current conventions. (Or just be some knucklehead splashing around out there...we don't know yet)

3. THer is a phrase in financial deals "for value received". Meaning obvious. There is no problem not paying for contributions, especially if you are not making anything yourself. You will limit your pool of contributors, but it's still a huge pool. I have used people (mostly young photo models, promotional interns, and assistants) without pay many times. My personal standard on the matter is this: you don't have to pay, but you don't exploit. It comes down to things like this: a stop by Barbizon and snatch up a few student models. If I were to offer them the choice between working a half day for twenty bucks or ven a hundred bucks and having their picture in a slick catalog or magazine mailed to a million people, which to you think they would grab?

What you are offering your contributors is exposure, entry level, and pleasure of seeing their name and work in print. The best thing you can do to maximize their "payoff" is to produce the best-looking, coolest magazine possible. That's what they want and your part of the deal is to strive to give it to them. This means more to them that the .ol cents a word some rag pays or they wouldn't be submitting to you. Same goes for artists. You might consider having a gallery of contributors work. Including links to pages by writers and artists is another nice feature of online pubs. (oops, publications, this is a British site, isn't it?)

Don't go into your pocket to pay at first. This is accepted and there is no point in your losing money...you have more on the line here than the writers do and you are serving them as much as they serve you. A cruise of my posts here (and anywhere) will quickly show that I am a bit of a pitbull on issues of screwing writers over. But this is not that, and don't let some yoyo from lulu tell you it is. You are offering a deal, they are taking it. All you have to do is live up to your end: publish them. They know that. If it's cool with them, who else has a say in the matter?

You can get good writers and artists to submit for free. You can't get a good editor to work for free. Because it's not fun. You will find out if you can do the job. There are two faces of editing: selection, positioning, cutting kind of things (cutting writer's work is, of course, evil) and correcting, sprucing, maiming kind of things. See how you do. You might consider paying an editor for a pass over the first time just to see how well you did. And if you think his contributitions were worthwhile. This is an area where you might want to look into college internships once you are under sail.

What really makes mags work, I hate to tellya, is the ad manager/sales guys. Less so online, but a reality if you want to have any money to piss away on those whining writers. This is where you need top-flight people unless you can do it yourself.

I gotta go. I'll try to write a little more on this later.

For now: absolutely ignore that ninny advice. Pay writers when it's feasible just make sure you are treating them right in the meantime.

Good luck. Sucker.

 

[lin robinson]

Andromeda Spaceways, with 28 issues in print and all those eager writers chasing submission guidelines, still only manages about 100 unique visitors per day on average.

Damn! And I just wrote an article for Spaceways!

 

[lin robinson]

Will writers be more inclined to submit their stories if Tower of Light offers a small payment?

A Martian steps out of his lander in New York. A drunk approaches him and says, "Hey, buddy, can you give me a buck?"
The Martian scans his translator and says, "What's a buck?"
The drunk says, "You're right, make it a fiver."

So I gotta ask. Is it worth doing a poem for five bucks if it's not worth it for publication?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Everybody knows that some mags, especially startups don't pay at first (I have a note on that later) but online mags tend to draw more sneers for some reason, as if they weren't "real" publications. In fact, the work IS published. And it was selected.

I think it's important to point out that online "mags" especially seem to experience a lot of churn - so the actual credit-worthyness of such sites I would expect to be pretty negligable.

As with the publisher comments - anyone can set up a website and publish third-party material, which makes the entry-level for being published on such sites very low.

I think anyone who needs to succeed in any competitive industry will realise that giving work for free to low-entry/low-value sites isn't necessarily going to be a constructive use of time if it's not going to help breach actually competitive markets.

This is especially as lots of these sites appear to be run by aspiring writers, who appear to have little understanding of the publishing industry, let alone what is required as a publisher or editor.

2c.

 

[lin robinson]

Very true.

Which makes a different message to publishers than would be directed to writers.

For whom two salient things to keep in mind: The work IS published. If you find a paying online publisher later, your work is no longer virgin. It is also "registered" for copyright protection as long as it stays online.

A link to a story on a non-paying site has the same intrinsic value as a link to one on a paying site in this way: it's only as qood as the quality of the story.
The link comes "framed", rather than just pasted into your email. It beats having nothing to show.
There is an element of laziness implied by a publisher wanting to have another publisher "back his play" on selecting writers. The purer element would be to judge a sample on its own lights. But having it lit up a little by an attractive presentation can't hurt.
(Having it displayed in some stupid art design makes it less effective, of course. I had magazine clips I really liked but wouldn't show to new markets because the art direction had made them grotesque. And I'm not just talking about the disaster at Hustler, either.)

 

[Birol]

For whom two salient things to keep in mind: The work IS published. If you find a paying online publisher later, your work is no longer virgin. It is also "registered" for copyright protection as long as it stays online.

The work itself will not be registered for copyright. The entire publication has a whole may or may not be registered through copyright, depending on what the owners of the publication have chosen to do. Many online publications do not register their completed issues; some do. However, they do not register the individual work, but the publication issue as a whole. Legally, these are different things.

A link to a story on a non-paying site has the same intrinsic value as a link to one on a paying site in this way: it's only as qood as the quality of the story.

Disagree. The value of the clip is, in part, who has published it. A clip from Fantasy & Science Fiction Magazine beats a clip from Blade Blood & Thruster. This does not mean that a clip from BBT is not legitimate, but F&SF has a better reputation in the industry than BBT. It has existed longer, published better known authors, and is known for being more discerning in what it publishes.