David Weber "On Basilisk Station" SPOILERS FOR LATER BOOKS

[Parson]

I (Ursa major) am not in the habit of editing seven-year-old posts, but as the title suggests that the thread is specifically about the first book in a long series, but seems to contain spoilers for many of the later books (and in the first few posts!), I thought I ought to add a spoiler warning:

SOME POSTS MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR LATER BOOKS IN THE SERIES​

As good as David Weber’s new series promises to be, I don’t think "Off Armageddon Reef can match "On Basilisk Station." I consider the Honor Harrington series one of the best, if not the best, SF series of all time. I was so struck by Honor Harrington that I literally could not put the book down. It really resonated with me in terms of self-sacrifice, duty, and of course honor. It seems to me that for a book to be really good it not only has to have a good story to tell, but it also has to have some depth to it.

One of the key factors in the way Honor leads her people is that she leads by example, and then expects everyone else to give her the best that she has. She does this without coercion, simply expecting people to live up to their commitments. Does this really work in real life?

Another thing I really enjoy about the whole series is the way Weber continually shows the that governments crumble from the inside out, as people forget about honor and only live for privilege. Does this leave any hope for Western democracies?

 

[chrispenycate]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

There is always hope; hope of regeneration, if not of lack of degeneration.
And even if a society collapses into a more primitive state (as Manticore's constitutional aristocracy becomes more feudal, or Grayson a theocracy) good elements continue for succeeding generations (so, unfortunately, do bad ones. still, perhaps the good ones will develope faster)
But, while the societies have a mixture of virtues and vices, Honor herself tends to a bit over perfect, practically perfect in every way.Dangerous, for a multi-volume work.
My main complaint about the series, however, is that he won't let me have a treecat.

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

There is always hope; hope of regeneration, if not of lack of degeneration.
And even if a society collapses into a more primitive state (as Manticore's constitutional aristocracy becomes more feudal, or Grayson a theocracy) good elements continue for succeeding generations (so, unfortunately, do bad ones. still, perhaps the good ones will develope faster)
But, while the societies have a mixture of virtues and vices, Honor herself tends to a bit over perfect, practically perfect in every way.Dangerous, for a multi-volume work.
My main complaint about the series, however, is that he won't let me have a treecat.

I would have thought that the idea that Weber is promoting is rather that form of government is of little consequence, constitutional monarchy can be good and fair or not; theocracy can be good and fair or not; democracy can be good and fair or not; etc. I believe he would put the real issues down at the level of the individual. If the form of government can help produce a person who is him/herself good and fair, and can therefore be expected to be treated the same way you have a viable and vibrant government. If not, then not.

Honor is over perfect? ---- hmmm, that never occured to me. She is certainly not indestructable, which would have made her cartoonish. In fact as of installment 10 I would suggest that she is beginning to slide over into the cyborg side of human existence. She has lost a battle or two. Weber also hasn't made her immune from the baser impulses, Field of DisHonor lets us see an Honor who essentially carries out an execution of two arch enemies. He also shows her often caught in throes of depression which only Nimintz (sp) is able to pull her out of. She sees herself as killer under the control of honor and duty, but a stone killer none the less. I will never forget the passage in Flag in Exile where (name escapes me) is about to contend for Grayson's leadership via sword and he looks into Honor's eyes and sees them saying "I am death." In various passages he has people say/think "She's the most dangerous person I've ever met."

So I guess I don't see her as perfect. I see her as finely trained, physically gifted, lucky in place of birth, but self controlled to the extreme so as to bring about the best chances for victory.

 

[chrispenycate]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Not indestructible, no, ; and unlike societies, not regenerable.
But even in "Field of dishonor" where he lover has been - essentially assassinated - and she executes the perpetrators, she isn't getting revenge, or anything hot, out of it. It's more part of her duty
Perhaps, in her military persona this isolation is essential, but she seems to maintain it throughout her life. The only emotion which penetrates this is the sorrow/guilt at the loss of those who have followed her.
Still, there are plenty of others around her, doubting and emoting, so perhaps this isnot critical.

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Not indestructible, no, ; and unlike societies, not regenerable.
But even in "Field of dishonor" where he lover has been - essentially assassinated - and she executes the perpetrators, she isn't getting revenge, or anything hot, out of it. It's more part of her duty
Perhaps, in her military persona this isolation is essential, but she seems to maintain it throughout her life. The only emotion which penetrates this is the sorrow/guilt at the loss of those who have followed her.
Still, there are plenty of others around her, doubting and emoting, so perhaps this isnot critical.

Chris, would you say that love didn't penetrate Honor? The whole thing with Paul Tankersly, her ill fated lover, would seem to point at love getting through. I would tend to say that Weber let her be almost giddy with love. There's that memorable line when Paul is in her shower, and she delays going to the bridge, because there's a man in her shower and "it's an opportunity to good to pass up." Or what about Claus Hauptmann in "On Basilisk Station," leader of the Hauptman cartel, when he threatens Honor's parents. She corners him in the lift of the Fearless and threatens to kill him in a duel if he comes near her parents. There is something else in Weber's latest book of this series "At All Costs" but on the off chance you have not picked it up yet I will not post a spoiler.

But you do raise an excellent point. A person should ask about the series: Does Honor Harrington have a persona outside of the navy? I think you can make the case that she does, but it is certainly subservient to her military one.


Thanks for posting.

 

[chrispenycate]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

You're too right I haven't picked it up yet;I've not yet obtained "War of Honor"
Waiting is.
Next time I hit a civilised bookshop, forget about communicating with me for a day or two (it'll probably be christmas, and my sister knows the symptoms by now)
And her Grayson steadholding is outside the navy, but somehow she applies all the same character traits that are brought out by the military; not surprising, really, as they must be inherent as well as brought out by the training.
And, since this is a basilisk thread (well, it's an entire Honorverse thread, but the title's Basilisk) don't forget, don't mention the gravity lance.

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

The less said about the Gravity Lance the better, but it does make for one of the humorous portions of "On Basilisk Station" thinking about what Honor will say to one Admiral Hemphill in the Admiral's "moment of glory."

I have the sense that Basilisk is a name I should know from somewhere else. You wouldn't happen to know the source of that name.

 

[iansales]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

It's a mythological beast - see here.

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Ian,

That's very good. "A poisonous snake," with a secondary meaning of a "little king." If you know the book, even if you haven't read it, I don't think I would spoil anything to tell you that there is a character, one of Honor's major adversaries who would fit that description perfectly. In fact as I think about it there is more than one candidate in the story where Weber might well be playing a pun on us.

Thanks.

 

[iansales]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

I've read the Honor Harrington series up to Ashes of Victory, at which point I gave up on them. The first couple of books were fun, if not very original or well-written, but Harrington became increasingly implausible as a character as the series progressed. In fact, each book was painted with broader and broader brush-strokes, and a much reduced palette, until the novels ended up as lots of military-is-good vs politicians-are-bad posturing and a couple of battles in which Harrington, naturally, triumphs.

I suspect you may be reading too much into the title of On Basilisk Station. Weber no doubt chose it because Harrington comes from the Manticore system - also a mythical beast - and so he was clearly following a naming convention.

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Actually, I would say that Ashes of Victory was the low point of the series. The political thing you mention starts tailing out of sight in "War of Honor" and "At All Costs" raises the bar back to the original level. I would guess that it is hard to keep series going through 10 sequels without losing something. I know that it is true with Dune. I never did care much for the later books. I much prefer anything in the Honorverse over those later Dune books.

As to whether I'm being too subtle or not, I guess we'll just have ask David Weber if we get the chance. But certainly the vast majority of the planets named in the Honorverse have no relation to mythical creatures. I'm trying to place a "manitor." The only thing that comes to mind is the "minotor" of Greek mythology. Are they different spellings or something. [Confession, I read very, very, very, little Fantasy where creatures like this hold reign.]

Thanks again.

 

[iansales]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

By the "Later Dune books", do you mean the ones co-written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson? Because they do not compare favourably in any way with the originals written by Frank Herbert.

And Harrington was born on Sphinx in the Manticore system. There's also Medusa, Phoenix, Gryphon... There's definitely a pattern emerging

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

By the "Later Dune books", do you mean the ones co-written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson? Because they do not compare favourably in any way with the originals written by Frank Herbert.

And Harrington was born on Sphinx in the Manticore system. There's also Medusa, Phoenix, Gryphon... There's definitely a pattern emerging

A pattern definitely. But I do not recognize Manticore as any "mythical" creature. Is it? Medusa -- yes, Phoenix --- yes, Gryphon --- yes.

No, I don't mean the later ones co-written. I felt Frank Herbert lost his way after God Emperor of Dune. Dune is monumental, but after that they go down hill rather percepitously. I actually prefer the Heechee saga as a series to Dune. Your aformentioned implausibility factor comes into focus in a big way here. It seemed to me like he was just trying to get crazier and crazier. Now don't ask for many details. I've not picked up a Dune book in about 20 years. Could it be that long? I'm not sure. But a long, long, time; nonetheless.

 

[iansales]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Manticore is definitely a mythological creature - see here.

As for Dune... I know a lot of fans don't like the books after the original trilogy, but I quite like them. True, Miles Teg becomes an increasingly implausible character - but it's so over-the-top he's almost plausible The Herbert/Anderson books, however, are just plain awful.

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Manticore is definitely a mythological creature - see here.

As for Dune... I know a lot of fans don't like the books after the original trilogy, but I quite like them. True, Miles Teg becomes an increasingly implausible character - but it's so over-the-top he's almost plausible The Herbert/Anderson books, however, are just plain awful.

Okay, I understand what a "Manticore" is in mythology.... or at least as the wiki --- I trust as far as I can throw --- pedia says. It might be that Weber uses the manticore as a symbol as further tie to the Hornblower series and the England of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries that he seems to love so well.

 

[iansales]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

You can trust wikipedia on manticore.

I don't see how a manticore ties in with Hornblower, though.

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

You can trust wikipedia on manticore.

I don't see how a manticore ties in with Hornblower, though.

It's not Manticore so much as Honor Harrington is seen as being a kind of SF Haratio Hornblower saga. Have not read any of that, I've seen one movie, kind of average. But it does get great press.

I suspect that Weber himself loves it because he puts that Hornblower quote on his dust jacket, or did. Don't have one in front of me to check it out.

I did trust Wiki on Manticore, but for anything serious I wouldn't trust it for any more than a place to find where to start looking. But it's "free" so I'll let it be.

 

[iansales]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Well, yes Weber was certainly inspired by Hornblower, although Harrington's career is much more closely modelled on that of Horation Nelson. While she has yet to invent "Harrington's Bridge", like Nelson she has lost an eye and an arm and had an affair - much reported in the press - with a married person.

The Republic of Haven is also a thinly-disguised Revolutionary France. Actually, not even thinly disguised - the leader is called Rob S Pierre, after all!

 

[Parson]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Well, yes Weber was certainly inspired by Hornblower, although Harrington's career is much more closely modelled on that of Horation Nelson. While she has yet to invent "Harrington's Bridge", like Nelson she has lost an eye and an arm and had an affair - much reported in the press - with a married person.

The Republic of Haven is also a thinly-disguised Revolutionary France. Actually, not even thinly disguised - the leader is called Rob S Pierre, after all!

This has changed in the last 2 (if memory serves) "The War of Honor" and "At all Costs." The Republic of Haven is now a much more formidable enemy in that it's government has finally gotten its act together, and are not the blundering fools of Legistaturists (sp) or even of Rob S. Pierre, who was an improvement over the first. I am not familiar with Horatio Nelson's final years, but I suspect that Honor has found a place in the book "At All Costs" that Nelson never found.

 

[iansales]

Re: David Weber "On Basilisk Station"

Well, Bonaparte was an artillery captain in the Republican French army... before ending up founding an Imperial dynasty. I wonder Weber plans to take Haven in a similar direction?