Novel Characters Speaking Dialogue in Latin

[The Bloated One]

Dear All,

I need to show that a character is speaking in Latin, but so that readers can understand what is going on, move the dialogue into English.

I have given an example below where I start in Latin and reply in English. Is this the accepted norm?

Any advive is appreciated. These two (infamous) characters will talk together a lot in my novel, so I need to get the procedure right at the start.

--------​

The roof collapsed and a 17th Century sedan chair crashed through the plaster and wood landing heavily on the floor. No one in the chapel moved. There came a scrabbling sound, followed by movement under the pile of rubble. A naked, hairy man emerged from the wreckage and looked up. His wide beady eyes scanned the many faces in the room until he recognised one, and he ran open armed toward him, crying.

"Leonardo, Leonardo! EGO cannot puto is, est is vere vos?" Two students prevented the man from reaching him.

"I am Leonardo d Vinci, who are you?

"Your humble servant, Michel de Nostredame." Leonardo looked at the pitiful caveman and signalled to a student to get some clothes. He then looked at the hole in the ceiling.

"You’ve just destroyed my Last Supper!" he said, pointing angrily to the sky.

The Bloated One...

 

[Peter Graham]

Dear All,

--------​

The roof collapsed and a 17th Century sedan chair crashed through the plaster and wood landing heavily on the floor. No one in the chapel moved. There came a scrabbling sound, followed by movement under the pile of rubble. A naked, hairy man emerged from the wreckage and looked up. His wide beady eyes scanned the many faces in the room until he recognised one, and he ran open armed toward him, crying.

"Leonardo, Leonardo! EGO cannot puto is, est is vere vos?" Two students prevented the man from reaching him.


The Bloated One...

Hello, Bloated One.

I'm afraid that this doesn't work. Whether it is grammatically correct modern Italian, I know not, but as the sedan chair is 17th Century, I'm assuming the piece is set in the relatively recent past. As such, no-one would be speaking Latin anyway, unless they are either part of some Da Vinci Code-esque brotherhood or are Fellows of St Windbag's College, Cantab.

The difficulty in flicking between English and A.N.Other language is that it looks as though your characters are doing the same thing. I assume that they are actually speaking different languages but are multi-lingual and therefore able to understand one another.

If so, how about just giving a bit of a stage direction - "Stone me, it's a right pea-souper", said Leonardo in his impenetrable Sicilain patois....

That said, I rather like your writing style.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Peter Graham]

Hello again,

I've just re-read your piece. It's the actual da Vinci and Nostradamus, yes? If so, I still don't think they'd be speaking Latin - is there such a thing as High Italian?

Peter

 

[The Bloated One]

Peter,

Thanks for looking and commenting, appreciated.

so, better to drop the latin altogether and just dialogue in English?

The story is a tad complicated, and I perhaps should have provided more background. Here goes...

Nostradamus stole a time travelling machine when a bunch of time tourists from 2340 AD popped in to see him at work. In this particular case, the machine he stole was disguised as a 17th Century sedan chair. (I also have dentists chairs, commodes and ejector seats.) Poor Nostradamus has now been flitting back and forth in time ever since. He knows of Leonardo, and manages to travel to him, collapsing the chapel roof.

My research shows that both Nostra and Leo would understand and could speak in Latin. Nostra's main language was high French and Leo's Italian. That is why I picked latin as the language to communicate in.

Nostra has travelled into the 21st Century and seen aircraft and balloons - all the inventions Leo goes in to design.

Oh, and I will have to sort out the Da Vinci code as well.

As I said, a lot of dialogue to come!

Here is the bit where we first meet Nostra and his sedan chair....

http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/38907-the-adventures-of-tarquin-jenkins-chapter-two.html

Regards,

TBO

 

[chrispenycate]

In the seventeenth century, a form of church latin was used as a sort of lingua franka overthe whole of the European continent. Wherever you might travel in the Austro-hungarian, the germanic, scandinavian, iberian regions, educated people would speak latin. Thus, Leonardo would speak Venician, Milanaise, Roman, probably Savoyarde and French… but with a stranger, latin would be a safe bet. If you listened to modern Swiss German, you'd understand why this was important in a heavily-traded region; you can get towns ten miles apart that speak mutually incomprehensible dialects.

The grammar of this latin was simplified, the vocabulary reduced( look at American English, which performs much the same function today; the international version is seriously simplified) and the accents will have varied widely, but they could communicate.

So, the question is not whether they would have been speaking the language, but how that use should be represented on the page (since nowadays there are, unfortunately, educated people who have not learnt to speak latin.
Including me.

 

[The Bloated One]

Many thanks Chris, succinct and to the point.

So, the question is not whether they would have been speaking the language, but how that use should be represented on the page (since nowadays there are, unfortunately, educated people who have not learnt to speak latin.
Including me.

That is my predicament in a nutshell. Any suggestions? Is Peter Graham's suggestion the way to go?

If so, how about just giving a bit of a stage direction - "Stone me, it's a right pea-souper", said Leonardo in his impenetrable Sicilain patois....

Regards,

TBO

 

[dustinzgirl]

To me it depends on which route you want to take. The artsy fartsy route with Italian or Latin words, or the route everyone will understand where you use scene, setting, and background, including items of the period and clothing, instead of actual specific language to denote the era. You can always say "the man called out in Latin, a common language of travelers" or something of the like.

I'd go with the second. I barely remember Latin, anyways, and wouldn't have the patience to read a book littered with Latin, or any other language.

I even skip over all the made up languages like Klingon and Elven when reading a book, because quite frankly they bore me.

 

[timelord4]

When Nostradamus first addresses the Master (LDV), I think you can get away with it TBO. After that you can stick with English. Otherwise, as DG suggests, the reader slides over it. And you don't want your reader to start skipping over parts of your book (it becomes a habit)

TL

 

[The Bloated One]

DG, Timelord,

Many thanks. I think DG's suggestion is the way to go - keep it simple and use setting and background where necessary.

Thanks guys!

TBO

 

[Culhwch]

Not that it would be my suggestion, but I have seen a method used where a different quotation foramt is used for different languages. For example:

<Your dialogue here,> said Leonardo, his latin heavy with an Italian accent.

I think it's a little clumsy though. I'd vote for an initial burst of Latin, and then switch to English, perhaps with a 'he said in Latin' tag.

 

[The Bloated One]

Thanks Culhwch, and everyone else who took the time to offer suggestions.

I did a rewrite;

Chapter Eight
Nostradamus Meets Leonardo Da Vinci​

The room shook, and accompanied by the sound of thunder, a 17th Century sedan chair crashed through the backwall of the Convent, landing heavily on the floor. No one in the dining hall moved. Then came a loud scrabbling sound, followed by the pile of rubble and plaster moving. Emerging blinking from the wreckage was a naked, hairy man. His wide, beady eyes scanned the many faces in the room until recognising one he let out a tortuous wail and scrambled open armed toward him.

"Leonardo, Leonardo! EGO cannot puto is, est is vere vos?" he shouted in faltering Latin. Two students barred his way, and he fell to the floor babbling.

Surprised that he understood the strange man, the master painter replied. "I am Leonardo, who are you?"

The man grasped the ankles of the nearest student and gawped through his legs like a prisoner does through bars. "Your humble servant, Michel de Nostredame," he replied, spreadeagling himself in supplication.

Leonardo looked down on the prostrated, pitiful caveman and signalled to a student to get some clothes. He then looked at the wall painting where Judas Escariot once stood. He pointed angrily at the hole next to Jesus. "I don’t care if you are the devil himself, you’ve just destroyed my Last Supper!" He then pointed at a flaxen haired woman sitting on a wooden chair. Do you know how much it costs to hire a female model?"

TBO

 

[Peter Graham]

Hello Bloated One,

I'm still not sure about the Latin point - I appreciate what Chris says and I'm very happy to bow to his knowledge, but I had a feeling that Latin of this age was written rather than spoken. It was the written language of the Church and some legal documentation, but I'd doubt that many people were actually in the habit of using converstaional Latin.

I had the misfortune to do some Latin in my callow youth - are you sure that your text is authentic Latin? It doesn't look quite right.

That said, I like this extract more every time I read it. Good pace, bouncy style and written with a flash of wit. Excellent!

Regards,

Peter

 

[The Bloated One]

Peter,

Thanks for your input. To be frank, I am content after doing a fair amount of research that both would speak a form of latin, but as you rightly point out, I should be a little suspicious of the actual latin I have used!

I found a 'latin web engine translator' on the web and used that. If I ever get to finish the book it would be one of the things to check during the rewrite.

Glad you liked it, though I am sure, using subject matter of Nostra meeting Leo, many on this site could come up with a brillaint piece of fiction. The trouble will be actually writing something that lives up to the possibilities.

And if I can debunk Dan Brown as well, I will have achieved utopia...

TBO

 

[Sirathiel]

Well, first off: I like the excerpts you have written. Though I have the feeling the first one portrays Leo's anger more consistently while the second is over all the better written one.

Concering Latin: Knowing that you used an online translator, explains why I don't even get a gist of what is being said. (Had to sit through seven years of Latin in school...) For example "cannot" is in no way a Latin word... and "ego" is very rarely used - mostly if the person speaking wants to emphasise the "I". Otherwise the verb ending is sufficient to subsitute the missing pronoun. - In any case, get yourself somebody with real knowledge of Latin for the rewrite. A simple dictionary or online translator won't do it.

Concerning how to get across the language that is spoken...
1) You should add in your second excerpt when Leo first speaks that he answers in Latin.
2) Another possibilty I have seen successfully executed - i.e. in a published book - is to write the spoken text in the foreign language and following that up with the English translation. As if the person is translating the text in their head into a more native tongue. But if you plan on having them speak lots of Latin, that might not be the best solution. In that case stick to referring that a person is speaking in the foreign language and give the text in English... (The two men were caught up in a heated discussion. As usual their language of choice was Latin. "....")

~Sira - hoping to have given a lil piece of insight.

 

[The Bloated One]

Sira,

Thanks for the heads up. I will certainly consult someone who understands Latin, though I must say you seem to understand it more than most! (I am a total numpty).

For now, I will write in English and simply tag it as you suggest, making it clear they are speaking Latin.

TBO

 

[areader]

Terry Pratchett uses dog latin...or even sometimes something that appears latin but is highly interpretable by english speakers. Since your book is tongue in cheek that would work! Actually some of his latin blendings have layers of jokes to them/and reference other historical people/events/etc. Have fun!

 

[Interference]

Since Michel is speaking faltering latin, might you not start by saying, in English, what he would like to say and then in poor Latin what he actually says? Maybe Leo would get a laugh out of it, too. Either way, a translation for the reader might be essential, even for short bits. I'm afraid it's down to your, undoubtedly prodigeous, skill how you execute these.

Liked teh excerpt, btw, and the concept is kinda neat.

 

[The Bloated One]

Thanks, areader, Interference.

I think I am going to write the chapter in English, and if it ever gets as far as a publishers desk, I will discuss the prefered way of showing them speaking in Latin.

Unfortunately I am not clever enough to start making jokes using language. I'll just have to make it very slap stick, and take pot shots at the whole Dan Brown industry when I can, e.g. Judas being modelled by a flaxen haired women!

TBO