Demosthenes and Locke

[nuraman00]

I have read "Ender's Game", "Ender's Shadow", "Speaker For The Dead", "Shadow Of The Hegemon", and "Shadow Puppets".

I am now reading "Xenocide", having just finished "Shadow Puppets" a few weeks ago.

When I was reading Shadow Puppets, there were 2 different spots in the book, where Theresa Wiggin told Peter "You're Locke. And you're Demosthenes."

Yet, I thought Valentine was Demosthenes.

Did Theresa mean that because Peter was controlling Valentine, and making her write as Demosthenes, that he was really the one who was writing as Demosthenes? So, Theresa wasn't speaking literally, right? She was saying that he was 2 different people, to bolster Peter's confidence, and show him he still had influence, right?

Xenocide also seems to take place about 3000++ years after Shadow Puppets. I know this book was written before Shadow Puppets, but during all this time, the world still didn't know that Peter was originally behind Demosthenes? And the world still believed that Demosthenes existed?

Why did Valentine continue to write as Demosthenes for so long? Once Valentine left, Peter couldn't control her anymore, right? (NOTE: If the plot in Xenocide will explain that, then don't spoil it for me. Perhaps she uses that persona to her advantage.)

So Theresa and John Paul knew Peter was really making Valentine write as Demostheses, but they didn't want to reveal that to others, because they didn't want to upstage Peter, and make him feel incompetent, right? They were proud of him, to some extent.

 

[Parson]

I have read "Ender's Game", "Ender's Shadow", "Speaker For The Dead", "Shadow Of The Hegemon", and "Shadow Puppets".

Your confusion is a good reason a person should read books in a series in the order in which they were written.

When I was reading Shadow Puppets, there were 2 different spots in the book, where Theresa Wiggin told Peter "You're Locke. And you're Demosthenes."

Yet, I thought Valentine was Demosthenes.

Did Theresa mean that because Peter was controlling Valentine, and making her write as Demosthenes, that he was really the one who was writing as Demosthenes? So, Theresa wasn't speaking literally, right? She was saying that he was 2 different people, to bolster Peter's confidence, and show him he still had influence, right?

Exactly, if you remember in Ender's Game there was only one time Peter did not edit Valentine's editorial and that was when she was boiling with rage.

Xenocide also seems to take place about 3000++ years after Shadow Puppets. I know this book was written before Shadow Puppets, but during all this time, the world still didn't know that Peter was originally behind Demosthenes? And the world still believed that Demosthenes existed?

Unlikely, but just barely possible with a closely guarded secret. To believe this we have posit a world celebrety secrets cannot be turned into a revenue stream, and where shame is a part of the society. For a modern American this might be a greater leap of faith than FTL transportation.

 

[nuraman00]

Thanks Parson, you helped clarify things for me.

 

[Tel Janin]

Jane wouldn't let anyone else post something with the name of Demosthenes in it. Everyone pretty much knew that Peter was both during his life, but his death was well publicized. By the time Valentine wrote her next book, Peter was dead. It said in on of the books that he "gave him back to her", but I don't remember which book.

 

[nuraman00]

Jane wouldn't let anyone else post something with the name of Demosthenes in it. Everyone pretty much knew that Peter was both during his life, but his death was well publicized. By the time Valentine wrote her next book, Peter was dead. It said in on of the books that he "gave him back to her", but I don't remember which book.

Thanks for your reply.

I guess this brings up another question. If everyone knew that Peter was both Demosthenes and Locke, then after Peter died, why did people still respect whoever was writing as Demosthenes? Why did they let Demosthenes influence them, why did they listen?

I suppose the writing was that persuasive, that it didn't matter that the original author was dead. The ideas were still important.

 

[Tel Janin]

I think that had to do with the fact that Jane would'nt let anyone but Valentine post anything under that name, the network would automatically kick it out. I think it someone in the beginning of Xenocide was saying they thought that the government would only allow the greatest writers of the day to publish under the name Demosthenes. I always wondered why no one knew, since she was publishing a book on every colony she and Ender visited. I always figured that someone could figure out it was the same person, kept alive through lightspeed flight. Also, now that I'm thinking about it, i'm not certain people knew that Valentine was Demosthenes. In Shadow of the Hegemon, when Peter tells his parente that he's Locke, his mother asks him if he is going to announce that Valentine was Demosthenes as well, but it never said if he did or not. Also, when Valentine convinces Ender to go with the colony ship she said something about letting people try to figure out who Demosthenes was by looking up the passenger list.

 

[vervain_ashe]

What I found most beneficial, was to read Ender's stories first, then read Bean's stories. Yes, they do follow a similar, if not equal timeline, but I've read the books several times, and if mixing and matching for a first-timer can get confusing. It's easier to read one character, then to read the other. OSC has said many times that the reader can overlap the stories, but only if they have an idea of what is going on. Ender's life does cross Bean's life, but the books lead into entirely different directions. Try reading Ender's four, before reading Bean's four... and that's not to mention what's to come...

 

[biodroid]

is it necessary to read these books in order or are they stand alones with the same characters. I just finished Enders Game and thought it was very good, the bookshop by me only has xenocide in stock and I see it third on the list. What do you guys recommend?

 

[vervain_ashe]

I personally would recommend finding Speaker for the Dead, and read the books in order. They do build on each other. The same is with Bean's books (the Shadow series).

Try finding used copies on Amazon, or see if your local library will transfer a copy from another library.

 

[nuraman00]

Ok, I just finished Children Of The Mind.

I was fairly pleased with the ending. I can see why he split Xenocide and COTM into 2 books.

I wish he would have tied the philosophical part about Japanese culture, in the middle of the book, back in with the end somehow.

BTW, how did the Lusitiana Fleet continue to travel at faster-than-light speed, while Jane was disconnected? I thought she was an integral part of making the ansible work, with her ability to take things Outside and back Inside again.

Others' thoughts?

Thanks.