Winged Humans

[Flag Pole Sitta]

Hi! This is my first post on this forum, so a shout out to y'all! And secondly, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find any threads about this topic.

So the basic idea is that I'm writing a story where one of the main characters is a winged humanoid and I'm wondering about the practicalities of this. First and foremost he would need some insanely large wings, I'm thinking a 12 foot wing span (about 3.5 meters). The next major issue I came across were shirts. He couldn't just wear a shirt with holes in the back, they'd never fit over his wings. I thought maybe something that buttoned at the neck and along the side. The front would be one piece, and then he'd wrap it around and it would end up being a tank top, and if he wanted sleeves he could button them on. Can you guys visualize what I'm talking about? What are your thoughts on this matter?
I really appreciate any ideas you may have.

 

[quidscribis]

How similar is his physiology to humans? Birds have hollow bones, making them much lighter. Would he have something like this? Or would he have bones closer to humans? It will affect wing size dramatically.

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

Quidscribis has it right about the hollow bones, but I'm wondering about the wings.

Shouldn't the span of the wings be much more wider? Spread wings should be 30 feet at least, or am I wrong?
It's enormous.

More?

Tinker Bell's dust works very well .

 

[Flag Pole Sitta]

I am having his bones be hallow, because a 30 foot wing span is just ridiculously wide, he'd never be able to be inside. Though I think hallow bones wouldn't make that much of a difference, the logistics of winged humans are just ridiculously impossible. Like what about his legs, they'd just be massive dead weight while he's flying, they'd probably interfere with his aerodynamics. But that’s the joy of fantasy. "Its magic" is a valid argument.

 

[Flag Pole Sitta]

I was thinking more about the shirt thing (no one seems to care much but I like to pontificate) and I have come up with something better, the shirt would be a regular front buttons shirt with sleeves and everything in the front, then in the back there would be holes for the wings, then there would be a cut in the fabric from the wing hole to the neck so that when the shirt was put on a flap of fabric would fall open in the back. Then there would be buttons to fasten the flap into place at the neck and wing holes.
But of course the problem is, how do you fit the complicate shirt smoothly into the narrative?

And then, how would he hold his wings at rest? Unless he's depressed or tired he'd probably hold them off the ground, but how close to his body could he realistically hold his wings?

Ah, me, I'll go crazy keeping track of the details... that pixie dust looks pretty good...

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

John Varley, who is a physicist, described winged humans with great precision in the series Titan (book 3, I think).
They are tiny, about fifty-centimetre tall (!) and have eight-metre-long wings (each wing, now you see the span).

You could reduce the size of everything in your world.

The only way of wearing a shirt when you've got wings is to tightly fold your wings against your back.
Each time that you fly, you strip!

Or else the sheer strength of the unfolding wings tears the shirt apart, which would be inconvenient... but dramatic.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Culhwch]

I think as long as it's roughly believable, you can get away from deadly accuracy. It all come down to whether your prose sells the idea or not. If someone wants to believe in winged humans, they will. If someone else stops and says, 'Well, this is preposterous!', well, too bad. All you can do is hope that they've already bought the book and lost the reciept....

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

I think as long as it's roughly believable, you can get away from deadly accuracy. It all come down to whether your prose sells the idea or not. If someone wants to believe in winged humans, they will.

You are right!

I was just being pedantic.

I've seen a series of drawings about pedants in the gallery section (about page 150-160). Hilarious!

 

[Flag Pole Sitta]

John Varley, who is a physicist, described winged humans with great precision in the series Titan (book 3, I think).
They are tiny, about fifty-centimetre tall (!) and have eight-metre-long wings (each wing, now you see the span).

You could reduce the size of everything in your world.

That seems really weird to me, there are some lare hawks that are about that height, arn't there? And no bird has a wing span that massive.

The only way of wearing a shirt when you've got wings is to tightly fold your wings against your back.
Each time that you fly, you strip!

Or else the sheer strength of the unfolding wings tears the shirt apart, which would be inconvenient... but dramatic.

I hope this helps you.

If there were wing holes it should work out, right? It's so cheap to have an attractive male character wander around shirtless...

 

[gully_foyle]

The appropriate wingspan question has been discussed before, see http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/37593-wing-span-of-a-human.html.

The question of shirts, well, that's a new one. Are we talking business shirts here? You would probably opt for something that goes on backwards, like the type HardScienceFan wears (just joking Ben) so you just put your arms in and tie it up at the back. Otherwise something skimpy and in leather. If you've got wings I doubt you need to dress business/casual.

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

Hey! I suggested Tinker Bell's dust in the first place!

I haven't read that thread yet, thanks, Gully-Foyle.

The problem with flying humans is the weight of bones, a relatively huge head (plus a large body) and other useless, unbalancing things like those legs, which you, Flag, already noticed.

Titan is a very good, goofy-but-serious SF trilogy. Varley is an obsessive guy, besides being very funny. Since he's a scientist, he must have reflected hard on the problem, given the amount of details. I haven't made the calculations, so I can't vouch for their accuracy.

The problem with wearing a shirt (even an open one) lies in the size of dorsal muscles, which make a bulge and must (I read somewhere) tie themselves low and go down to the waist, forming like a girdle with other muscles.

Steph Swainston, in The Year of Our War, writes about a chap who is the only flying person in his world (the others have vestigial wings). There are just hints of his clothes, if memory serves, but of course it's written in the first person, which helps.
Still, even in the third person, you don't have to describe shirts!

And yes, the idea of handsome shirtless guys appeals to me, Flag Pole!

 

[Flag Pole Sitta]

Thanks so much, you guys gave me a bunch of things to think about, and I'd love to keep talking, but I have to go to bed. Really. I have to go to class in four hours. V.V

 

[lin robinson]

It's totally impracticle scientifically, so you're better off just doing it.
I recently read "Maximum Ride" in which mutant kids have wings...that fold up so they can wear clothes without anybody noticing it, no less.
Preposterous. Do readers care? Why should they?

 

[Sapheron]

Well, if you read that other thread I started, you'll find that the basic idea is that:

Scientifically, humans would be very different if they wanted to fly. A massive wingspan, smaller legs and head, lighter and/or hollow bones, and huge amounts of extra muscle and bone protrusions in the torso. It wouldn't really be a 'human' any more, it'd just be too different.

From the story teller's point of view, give them about two metre long wings and hope no one goes into it too deeply.

At least, that's the answer I got to. Most probably, yours will be different.

Finally, if you're going to sleep four hours before you turn up in class you aren't sleeping enough. To write properly you need to sleep enough. Bear it in mind.

 

[kythe]

I doubt most readers really worry about this level of detail, but this has been an interesting discussion to read.

Have you considered giving your character more than one set of wings? Dragonflies have long skinny bodies and two sets of wings. Because the lower body of a human is so heavy, it probably would need a set of wings for balance and support. I'm not sure how to fit that in, physiologically, especially if you want your person to wear clothes.

What about small wings that flutter quickly, like bees? Would it be possible to lift a human off the ground? Several sets of small wings may be more practical than one set of big wings, especially for hiding them under clothes.

 

[chrispenycate]

Does this have to work on Earth? If you can either increase the air pressure or decrease gravity, say to about luna levels, or preferably both (better put in a lot of heavy, neutral filler gas like neon, and you're still going to have problems woith the escape velocity of your oxygen molecules unless it's very cold) you can get thelift with less surface area.
And if you use membranous wings, rather than feathered, you can have a couple of extra joints in the bone structure supporting them to fold them up tighter.

 

[Dave]

What about small wings that flutter quickly, like bees? Would it be possible to lift a human off the ground? Several sets of small wings may be more practical than one set of big wings, especially for hiding them under clothes.

I was beaten to this! The other posts have focused on aerodynamics, gravitational force and mass/power ratios like you were asking an Engineering question. But Bees still fly! And this is Fantasy, does it really need a detailed scientific explanation?

 

[Giovanna Clairval]

What about small wings that flutter quickly, like bees? Would it be possible to lift a human off the ground?

Absolutely not... unless the human is as small and light as a bee, but I so agree with Dave! This is not SF; this is Fantasy, and you can do whatever you want.

You just decide that people can fly (but when they do, you add a feeling of strain on the muscles at the waist, something that can be irksome, or some other physical sensation but the wind in one's hair LOL, just to add a minimum of credibility), and you go happily about your winged humans (very tall, really tiny, with two, three, ten sets of wings).

What matters is that you make it believable within your frame of reference, and, once you have defined a law (physical or methaphysical) you stick to it.
It is consistency that matters, not scientific exactitude.

Thank you Kythe for the lovely image that fluttered into my mind when your bee-people passed me by.

And damsel-fly people as well...

 

[Hawke]

In response to the clothes question, you're making up a new race right? well why don't you make it so that they either, live in a warmer climate where shirts aren't as necessary (I know its a bit cheap but has been done really well, or make it so that at birth their upper body is covered already like a natural form of clothing, either feathers or some form of leather or toughened skin or something, which could also act as protection from other flying predators that may have evolved....its your world....its your rules at the end of the day...

 

[Flag Pole Sitta]

Have you considered giving your character more than one set of wings? Dragonflies have long skinny bodies and two sets of wings.

What about small wings that flutter quickly, like bees? Would it be possible to lift a human off the ground? Several sets of small wings may be more practical than one set of big wings, especially for hiding them under clothes.

I never thought about this, it's a really cool idea, but my character is based off of angles and I want something more traditional and majestic, but the dragonfly/bee wings are interesting...
and Sapheron your absolutely right about me not getting enough sleep
... T.T