Ianto Episode: Very, Very Confused!

[Thirteen]

Greetings Torchwood watchers. I'm new on this forums, so bear with me if this has already been discussed (and just point me to the right thread or repeat for the ignorant American). Here in the U.S. Torchwood has still just started and we're only in a few episodes. I need your help on the latest one I just watched because it don't make any kind of sense to me.

(SPOILERS will follow for anyone who has not yet watched this episode. It features Ianto, so if you haven't seen an episode like that, don't read any further)

Please help me understand this: In spite of the fact that Cybermen have murdered millions and nearly taken over the world, Ianto (who, apparently WAS working at the old Torchwood and should know better), keeps one in the basement, not telling anyone (we'll grant that she's pretty sexy and possibly a toy worth keeping). This results in putting everyone at risk, the place messed up and two innocent people dead (not to mention the murderous girlfriend). In spite of all this, he blames everyone but himselfor this travesty.

But the Torchwood folk don't sack him. They don't even tell him that it's time he used his vacation time and got away for a while.

Is good help really that hard to find in the U.K.? I mean, taking this as the Batcave, what do you do when Alfred tells you that you don't give a **** about him and he doesn't care that he's compromised the whole Batman operation with his own wants and needs, betrayed you and almost got Robin killed and isn't even sorry about those two other people who died may have had loved ones? Wouldn't you say it's time to let Alfred go? This is Britain! Can't you just replace him with Anthony Hopkins from Remains of the Day? Or better yet, Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter. He'd be a cool butler and the homemade pizza would be delicious.

Am I missing something? Is this a British thing? Do you just say, "Butler hid a cybergirlfriend in our basement and she almost killed us all and he's put out that we had to put her down. Oh, well, time for a cup of tea!"

What am I not getting? 'Cause in America...we'd fire his ass.

 

[steve12553]

I believe it has to do with "Suspension of Disbelief". If you can buy Cybermen, you have to be able to accept that they didn't fire him yet. I've also frequently found that much British Science Fiction TV is written with tongue planted firmly in cheek, as it were.

 

[Pyan]

And read this for some of the other watchers' reactions to this episode............

 

[Lenny]

Is this a British thing? Do you just say, "Butler hid a cybergirlfriend in our basement and she almost killed us all and he's put out that we had to put her down. Oh, well, time for a cup of tea!"

Haha! Spot on!

Jack will have his own reasons, and obviously, we're supposed to leave it at that.

There may also be the point that finding a good employee for Torchwood is hard. You can't put an ad in the local rag asking for a new fella to dispose of the bodies behind TW, can you? Should Jack let Ianto go, then not only will they have to wipe his memory, but they'll have to find a new man to clean up after them.

And with my legendary skills of prediction, I will now tell you that someone out of the next few posters will tell you how bad TW is, why you shouldn't watch it, and how Russell Davies can't write a script to save his life from a horde of man-eating toffees. You'll also get a better answer to the question.

 

[Pyan]

And with my legendary skills of prediction, I will now tell you that someone out of the next few posters will tell you how bad TW is, why you shouldn't watch it, and how Russell Davies can't write a script to save his life from a horde of man-eating toffees.

Why, Lenny, you're getting positively cynical in your old age - but you're right.

 

[Lenny]

Can I point out, just to be sure that no-one misunderstands me, that the views mentioned above are not my own?

And tell me about it! A few months off 18 and I'm already seeing the world through the eyes of a 50-odd year old!

 

[Pyan]

And tell me about it! A few months off 18 and I'm already seeing the world through the eyes of a 50-odd year old!

Well, speaking as one of that select group, welcome to your future!

 

[The Ace]

I personally thought it was because he's boffing Captain Jack, but I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Dave]

I personally thought it was because he's boffing Captain Jack, but I'm open to suggestions.

That's really the only explanation that works!

Am I missing something? Is this a British thing? Do you just say, "Butler hid a cybergirlfriend in our basement and she almost killed us all and he's put out that we had to put her down. Oh, well, time for a cup of tea!"

What am I not getting? 'Cause in America...we'd fire his ass.

No you're not missing anything, and it's not a British thing!

But just wait until you get to the final episode! I'd fire all their asses!

 

[Thirteen]

But just wait until you get to the final episode! I'd fire all their asses!

Actually, I'm already thinking that. None of them seem able to follow orders, they take stuff they shouldn't, use it even though they know it's dangerous, and can't seem to remember to turn their cellphones off when they're at work

From the looks of it, it's not a question of finding good help, it's a question of finding barely competent and trustworthy help. I don't find any save Captain Jack appealing as characters so far, and it doesn't help that they're all nimcompoops!

 

[Thirteen]

I believe it has to do with "Suspension of Disbelief". If you can buy Cybermen, you have to be able to accept that they didn't fire him yet.

Um, no. If I buy Cybermen I in no way have to accept that they didn't fire him. What complete nonsense! Why should one equal the other? And to add insult to injury, you're blaming the victim. You're essentially saying the writer can do no wrong, and it's all my fault if I can't believe it. Rubbish!

This is a basic rule of storytelling, especially when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy: the writer and his/her audience have a contract. In this contract the storyteller promises that if the audience will suspend their disbelief over some really fantastic things, the writer will NOT ask them to suspend their disbelief over others. In short, the writer won't give them a story that is nonsense from start to finish. MOST of it will be believable except for those few amazing things, and these, if they "believe" them for the hour, will be done as realistically as possible.

That's the whole idea of sci-fi: *real* people reacting to a fantastic things. If the people aren't portrayed as "real" however, the whole thing falls apart. Believing in Cybermen is easy--that's the fantastic part we, the audience, agreed to believe in when we decided to watch the show...but we did NOT agree to believe that the characters reacting to this cyberman would act in ways that made no realistic sense. We never agreed to suspend our disbelief over something like that.

In short, it's not up to me to "suspend" my disbelief over EVERYTHING the writer puts on my plate whether I want to swallow it or not. It's up to the WRITER to give me good, believable characters who act in as believable a way as possible in order to thank me for suspending my disbelief when it comes to that one (or a few) utterly fantastic elements that he wants me very much to believe in.

 

[Coolhand]

Ahh, Thirteen. If you liked what happened when Ianto screwed up, then you're gonna LOVE what Tosh does in a couple of episodes time...

 

[Ursa major]

This is a basic rule of storytelling, especially when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy: the writer and his/her audience have a contract. In this contract the storyteller promises that if the audience will suspend their disbelief over some really fantastic things, the writer will NOT ask them to suspend their disbelief over others. In short, the writer won't give them a story that is nonsense from start to finish. MOST of it will be believable except for those few amazing things, and these, if they "believe" them for the hour, will be done as realistically as possible.

That's the whole idea of sci-fi: *real* people reacting to a fantastic things. If the people aren't portrayed as "real" however, the whole thing falls apart. Believing in Cybermen is easy--that's the fantastic part we, the audience, agreed to believe in when we decided to watch the show...but we did NOT agree to believe that the characters reacting to this cyberman would act in ways that made no realistic sense. We never agreed to suspend our disbelief over something like that.

In short, it's not up to me to "suspend" my disbelief over EVERYTHING the writer puts on my plate whether I want to swallow it or not. It's up to the WRITER to give me good, believable characters who act in as believable a way as possible in order to thank me for suspending my disbelief when it comes to that one (or a few) utterly fantastic elements that he wants me very much to believe in.

Well said.

The ignoring of these rules is one of the reasons genre fiction - including SF and F - can get a bad name with the general public, especially when they're put on the screen or the TV, where time and budget are used as excuses for poor plotting and cardboard characters. (As if writing three dimensional characters is more expensive. )

I'm not saying that poor writing is more prevalent in genre; there are lots of woeful books out there, fiction and non-fiction. But the public seems to get the idea that what they'll get in SF/F is an alien, a space ship, an elf or a dragon and that's the end of the writer's creativity. The same applies to Thrillers and Crime stories - people expect plot twists and ingeneous crimes - and Romance, whatever its hooks are; anything else is a bonus. But it shouldn't be a bonus. Overall quality does matter; in fact, it matters more, as the characters in these stories are being tested beyond their usual limits and so we have to believe in their more extreme reactions and actions.

Sad to say, when the general public sees Torchwood, their prejudices will be confirmed. I can only hope the upcoming radio special will rise above the TV series.

 

[Thirteen]

But the public seems to get the idea that what they'll get in SF/F is an alien, a space ship, an elf or a dragon and that's the end of the writer's creativity.

I'm afraid you're right, and it doesn't help when the best thing most viewers can say about such genre shows and movies is "The effects were good!"

So far, I'm really disappointed in Torchwood. I appreciate that they had a great character in Captain Jack and wanted to give him his own series, but surrounding him with woefully poor secondary characters is a sheer waste--there's no one worthy enough for him to bounce off of--and you've only to watch his episodes with the Doctor and Rose to see this. He shouldn't have to carry the entire show, and right now that's what he seems to be doing. Would anyone watch this if he wasn't in it? I certainly wouldn't.

On the flip-side, Steven Moffat has restored my faith in genre fiction to some extent, proving that it can be written brilliantly, with fantastic characters, even on a minimal budget. His "Jekyll" series was, IMHO phenomenal and purely character driven; "Blink" was one of the best little horror-sci-fic stories I've EVER seen...not to mention one of the best Dr. Who stories ever written. What was truly wonderful about both of these was not only the 3-D characters, rich plot and the great dialogue, but also that Moffat wasted not a thing when it came to the science fiction. He didn't forget, for example, that a modern Jekyll and Hyde would make use of modern tec like cameras, computers and cellphones to communicate with each other. And in "Blink" he made the best use of the Doctor's time-traveling abilities that anyone's made use of in years; time-travel was the axis on which the plot turned so neatly and with such suspense.

I wish he had developed the characters and background for Torchwood

 

[Harleyquin]

We couldnt sack Ianto quite simply becuase with him in the series none of the other "main" actors look quite so terrible on screen, his marvelous robotic performances that could have been telephoned in and then put on set with a store front dummy.

Sadly Torchwood is all about the "human" thing. They didnt sack the amazingly moronic Ianto because what he did he did for "love" so all things are forgiven. The rest of the series fairs no better and I could put **** SPOILER **** on this post and say that practically every character screws another character that is either a vast and imediate danger to the earth - or really not a great career move.

Not one char dosent at some point let their groin do the thinking for them... maybe this is what makes us all "human" but seriously makes you wonder how the fate of the world could be placed on the shoulders of people who's soul concern seems to be finding the next person to boink.

seriously if Ming the Merceless took an aperance on the show I wouldnt be suprised to see Jack shmoosing up next to him in the bar and offering to buy him a drink, Tosh in the back ground with the Queen from Alien, Gwen snuggling up to a Darlec and Owen making eyes at anything that looked vagely female, with Ianto's card board cut out in a corner doing a better job of acting

Perhaps I'm getting cynicle in my old age?

 

[Thirteen]

Not one char dosent at some point let their groin do the thinking for them... maybe this is what makes us all "human" but seriously makes you wonder how the fate of the world could be placed on the shoulders of people who's soul concern seems to be finding the next person to boink.

seriously if Ming the Merceless took an aperance on the show I wouldnt be suprised to see Jack shmoosing up next to him in the bar and offering to buy him a drink, Tosh in the back ground with the Queen from Alien, Gwen snuggling up to a Darlec and Owen making eyes at anything that looked vagely female, with Ianto's card board cut out in a corner doing a better job of acting

ROFLMAO! Oh, gosh, that's hilarious! Thank you for that.

I think you've put your finger on something there. One of the joys of Captain Jack is his very open sexuality, but we note that in the Doctor episodes that the Doctor tends to say, "No, Jack!" when Jack's attraction lures him away from the mission, like someone tugging on the leash of a curious puppy. If you put said puppy in charge--no one to tell him "no!"--and you make his support team no better, than you create three big problems:

1) You undermine Jack's uniqueness as a character. Really, the other characters should each be a bit prudish or sexually conventional to contrast him. If they're all into exploring their sexuality, then how can Jack "shock" or surprise anyone?

2) You make the group, as you point out, like a group of friends, going to the pub, fooling around on the job, and egging each other on when it comes to having sex with sexy strangers. That's all well and good if the show is a comedy about slackers, but not what you want if the audience is to seriously believe that these people are protectors of the planet.

3) You remove the drama and pathos. If there are several episodes where the team is hyper-competent, really professional and on top of their game, then when you have an episode where one character messes up from human error or weakness, we'll feel great pathos. And it will really matter both to us and to the character. But if there are several episodes where the characters keep messing up from error or weakness, again and again, then you lose that. They give into their weakness or make a mistake, and instead of saying, "Oh! How sad! Please don't sack him! He'll do better next time!" we yawn and say, "Here we go again."

We shouldn't feel that these characters are more of menace to the planet than the aliens. There is a "darkness" that the show keeps presenting as if we're suppose to take it seriously, but if we take it seriously, then we have to take seriously that the mistakes and weaknesses of these people are creating one hell of a body count. And there's a point past which that's not forgivable. I feel like they've killed off half the population of Cardiff already

 

[Ursa major]

Am I missing something? Is this a British thing? Do you just say, "Butler hid a cybergirlfriend in our basement and she almost killed us all and he's put out that we had to put her down. Oh, well, time for a cup of tea!"

What am I not getting? 'Cause in America...we'd fire his ass.

I saw a trailer for the new series/season of Spooks (it's a series loosely (not even vaguely, I hope) based on the work of the UK's internal security service, MI5). In the last series (or was it the previous one?) it depicted a coup attempt in the UK. Afterwards, everyone was very forgiving; jobs were handed round, tantrums were thrown because coup leaders were treated less than perfectly. Absolutely ludicrous!

So perhaps it is a British Scrpit writer/editor/commisioner thing. (And it's a shame, because Spooks can be, on its own terms and with a lorryload of salt, quite entertaining.)

 

[Pyan]

Your para (3) above really hits the nail on the head, Thirteen, and explains, to me anyway, the curiously unsatisfactory nature of Torchwood. Human weakness, aberrational behaviour and even plain incompetence make good stories, but you've got to have the contrast between that and the normal running of the organisation.
With Torchwood, I always felt that they were lurching wildly from one crisis to another, with 90% of said crises caused by the characters themselves.......and this made it somewhat difficult to feel any sympathy for them.
Anyone else find themselves shouting things at the screen like "No, you idiots, don't split up!", and "What kind of security training did you have, then?!"