Languages of Westeros...

[Apopas]

Hi guys,
Sorry if this is a matter that has been discussed before but I searched the forum with no luck.

First of all there are three main peoples in Westeros. The First Men, the Andals and the Roynars. I presume each one had its own language at the time they invaded in Westeros at first place.
In the book whole Westeros speak the same tongue but the giants who speak the language of the First Men (am I wrong here?). I suppose the humans speak the language of the Andals (or a modern form of it) since they conquered the continent 6000 years ago. That means both north men and Roynar adopted andalish.
If that is true then why the wildings speak the same tongue and don't have their own?
Did I miss something in the series?

thank you

 

[Lord_of_the_morning]

well If i am not mistaken weren't the wildlings once apart of westeroes's(i am sorry for butchering the continent's name) society...i beleive that they were forced to or jsut fled beyond the wall thousands of years ago I might be mistaken...can someone help me out on this?

 

[Lord_of_the_morning]

ohh and i forgot welcome to the boards Apopas )

 

[Apopas]

well If i am not mistaken weren't the wildlings once apart of westeroes's(i am sorry for butchering the continent's name) society...i beleive that they were forced to or jsut fled beyond the wall thousands of years ago I might be mistaken...can someone help me out on this?

Hmmm if that's true then it explains a lot but I've never heard it before

ohh and i forgot welcome to the boards Apopas )

Hehe thank you mate, I hope to do a lot of spam

 

[Boaz]

App, In my perception the Wildlings are descendents of the First Men. The First Men, after many years of fighting the Children of the Forest, spread throughout the far reaches of the land of Westeros. I can think of two scenarios on how the lands north of the Wall became populated.

Mayhaps the progenitors of the Wildlings were caught on the wrong side of the Wall when it's foundations were laid. Presumably they were joined by others (primarily descendents of the First Men) who refused to submit to any lord's authority. The ability of every individual to govern him/herself is strong in the Wildlings.

If this was true, I'd think that the language of the Wildlings would have remained some strong form of the language of the First Men. But this is not the case... The Starks easily speak to the Wildlings and to the people of King's Landing.

The other (and mayhaps more likely) explanation is that after The Other was defeated 8,000 years ago some people went north to live free in the wild forests. The Wildlings know about the Others and the wights, but they seem to not know about The Other.

If this is the case, then the Andalish influence on what became the Common Tongue and it's use by the Wildlings is easier to explain.

Westeros and the War of the Five Kings has been compared to England and the War of the Roses. If medieval England is the inspiration for ASOIAF, then perhaps the languages and ethnic groups may be compared.

Maybe Wert, Raven, TK, or some of the posters who have heard GRRM speak could give better information than me, but here's my guess.

The Britons are the First Men. They came and pushed earlier inhabitants into the forests, mountains, and the north.

The Anglo-Saxons are the Andals. They invaded and pushed the Britons north and west. Their language, although influenced by the language of the natives, became the basis of English.

The Normans are the Targaryens. With a small, but professional army, the Normans conquered England. Their language became the court language, but the commoners kept the common tongue.

The Vikings are the Ironborn and the Rhoynar. Some Vikings raided, continued raiding and ultimately ruled huge tracts of lands through intimidation. Some Vikings found the land to their liking and settled among the locals.

In my thinking, the Romans don't really fit... though maybe a case could be made for their comparison to the Targaryens. This fit is best made linguistically... i.e. Latin is Valyrian, the language of all educated people.

I don't think GRRM has made a one to one transfer of languages, peoples, and religions of England to Westeros. It's more like he's gone through a huge salad bar... most of us don't associate jalapenos with sunflower seeds or bleu cheese with pineapples, but GRRM has mixed various ingredients with great success.

 

[Apopas]

Re: Languages of Westeros... (some spoilers)

Hehe thank you Boaz for your very detailed answer. Whatever you said makes absolute sense but yet it doesn't explain why the Wildlings are able to understand the Southerners.

Ok, lets say that the Andals are somewhat like the Normans, then the mix of Andalish and Firtsmenish became the common tongue.
If we accept that, then there is a problem. Since the wildlings were isolated how did they learn the common tongue in the way they adopted it and forgot their own?

The answer is obviously one...
They were not isolated when the Andals invaded, but they were living southern of The Wall.
To be able to adopt the common tongue in the way they forgot their own, they should have lived for a lot of years with the Andals. That means for some reason they exiled themselves beyond the wall no before 5000.
There they found the giants who were living for more than 3000 years alone and had kept the language of the First Men.*


*The giants were living in the north when the First Men appeared. They lived in the same lands for a lot of years and because the giants were a mentally inferior race they adopted the language of the humans. After initial fights, the First Men pushed the giants to the far north were they lived alone for thousands of years until the descedents of the First Men visited them anew around 5000

 

[TK-421]

and ultimately ruled huge tracts of lands through intimidation.

Nicely analyzed Boaz. I don't really have anything to add, except the say: "She's got huge...tracts of land!" You gave me a Monty Python moment.

 

[Koopa]

Besides a few Valyrian terms, i was of a mind they're all speaking English. They do seem to be able to understand one and other from every part of the realm.

 

[Boaz]

Kiwi, I don't know about Belgium, if the spoken French, Dutch, and German differ widely from place to place, but in the USA English can vary significantly, to our ears anyway.

I always considered JRR Tolkien the supreme master of the English language, of story telling, of world building, and crafting new languages. With the release of the LOTR movies, I saw a couple minute interview with the man himself... and I was flabbergasted that I could not understand him. Either he did that interview shot up on novacaine or his accent was practically barbarous. If it were not for the incontrobertible evidence that JRRT was an Oxford Don and that he wrote LOTR, it would be inconceivable that he and I share English as our native tongue.

Yes, the northerners and southerners, Andals and Dornishmen, Targaryens and bastards seem to all understand each other quite well.

 

[Koopa]

Offcourse there are different dialects, but the main language seems to remain the same throughout Westeros.

Offtopic: Belgium like most countries has a multitude of dialects, perhaps surprisingly many when you take into consideration how small my country is.
I don't know much about the Walloon(French speaking) part, but there are at least 6 different dialects in the Flemish (Dutch speaking) part that i know of. (obviously there are more). I myself speak 'flat flemish' wich bassically means that i pronounce the oo , aa, u and so a bit different (flatter), we speak faster as well then most other regions, forcing us perhaps to bring words together (e.g mayhaps in english : whazzup = what is up), as well as a few different words.

QUOTE : " The Raven NEVERMORE "

Offtopic: Feel like using that quote today, also i just noticed how some threads are viewed over 1XXX times when there are only 1X posts in it. A bit peculiar, and not so peculiar.

 

[Apopas]

Offcourse there are different dialects, but the main language seems to remain the same throughout Westeros.

Well... that was exactly my problem bro. Why they have the same language above and beyond the wall.

 

[Koopa]

Conveniality?

Its not that surprising actually. I mean the Targaryens have ruled Westeros for 8XX years, for all purposes, one universal language works best. (and even before that there was probably one universal trading laguage).The dialects have probably been integrated, eliminated on purpose. Making it truly one whole. The more remote people seem to have clung more to their old languages. The norries, and the people and skagos are said to have a language of their own if i am not mistaken.

As for beyond the wall, surely they have come in contact with each other over that time. The language has rubbed off,... .
Their is prove though that they are still heavily influenced by what may have been the language of the First Men (e.g Magnar of the Thenns.)

 

[Boaz]

Belgium like most countries has a multitude of dialects, perhaps surprisingly many when you take into consideration how small my country is.

This is surprising to me. Or mayhaps I should be surprised at how few dialects there are in my country considering it's size?

The problem is that we don't know the basis for the Common Tongue. Is it Andalish? Is it Firstmenish with Andal influences?

Latin was the language of Roman Catholocism in Middle-Age and Medieval Europe, but the general populaces did not speak it regularly, if at all. Contrast this to the Faith and the Common Tongue in Westeros. If the basis for the Common Tongue is Andalish, then it's spread beyond the pale of the Faith is harder to explain? If the Common Tongue originated from the language of the First Men and if the early Andal invaders allowed their services of the Faith to be done in the language of the conquered peoples, then this might better explain the widespread use of Common and the domination of the Faith.

Sorry, I don't have answers... just more speculations.

 

[Shacklock]

Well, one thing I do know, they dont speak the same as the first men beacuse it mentions in CoC about how Robb's crown is engraved with runes of the First Men.

 

[Apopas]

Well, one thing I do know, they dont speak the same as the first men beacuse it mentions in CoC about how Robb's crown is engraved with runes of the First Men.

Exactly! And as far as I remember the giants speak the tongue of the first men while the wildlings no. That's for the reasons I explained above.

 

[Koopa]

Written language is different then spoken language though.

 

[Marvolo]

Nicely analyzed Boaz. I don't really have anything to add, except the say: "She's got huge...tracts of land!" You gave me a Monty Python moment.

One of the funniest scenes ever. "So I built another castle, and it sank into the swamp. So I built another castle!..."

Mance references the old tongue a few times. The Wildlings have contact with folks from the Iron Kingdom, through deserters from the wall or through contact with rangers. It is entirely possible that the language simply spread.

I don't know about the giants because I haven't gotten that far. But is it possible they're just so stubborn they refuse to adopt another language?

 

[Slyde]

... Westeros and the War of the Five Kings has been compared to England and the War of the Roses. If medieval England is the inspiration for ASOIAF, then perhaps the languages and ethnic groups may be compared...

Great analysis Boaz - I thought some of this seemed familiar, in a historical sense.

Much like the Dune series is derived from situations and people in the middle east.

 

[Shacklock]

I found a line in Storm of Swords where it states the vast majority of the Wildings actually dont speak the common tongue, so apparently it's only the ones close to the wall that do buisness/trade etc. with the Crows.