Psychoanalysis: The Stark Truth

[Boaz]

We've talked a lot about preparation (or lack thereof) of the Stark children before their world was turned upside down. All of them, including Jon, seem to have been encouraged to be dreamers... Bran to be a Knight, Sansa to be Queen of Beauty, Jon to be legitimized, Robb to be a great lord. All were given montrous predators on a whim. For all of the gruff talk and austere facade, the Stark indulged their children as much or more than the southron lords. Maybe it was the Tully influence... or maybe the Starks are just good at avoiding the truth.

Jon learned quickly from Tyrion that the Night's Watch was not the gallant band of brothers that he heard from Lord Eddard.

Sansa learned from Littlefinger that life is not a song... and sometimes the knights, kings, and queens are the monsters.

Arya learned from Jaqen and Sandor that it's better to kill and stay alive than to worry about what others think of her.

Robb learned that real emotions accompany the death of family. Robb found out he was not the automaton that Eddard was.

Rickon learned that mommy and daddy would not always keep him safe. He's been abandoned by everyone.

Bran learned that he might be useful even without being able to chop people's heads off.

Tyrion said to Jon, "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."

This sums up most people, including me.

But the Starks pride themselves on honesty and preparation. That's the heart of the Stark words... Winter is Coming... this means Face Reality and Be Prepared.

In some ways the Starks did face reality and were prepared. They supported the Night's Watch in word and deed. They kept the King's peace and meted out his justice and mercy. They took much responsibility for the Greyjoys who were not even their own bannermen. Robb knew much of commanding men, leading troops, and inspiring confidence. Sansa knew all the correct things to do and say in public.

In other ways the Starks indulged in fantasies. Jon joined the NW. Bran spied on the Lannisters. Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey. Lady and Nymeria were sent to court?!?! Who thought that was a good idea?!?!

Eddard knew Robert had a couple of severe character flaws, just as Robert had a few superlative heroic traits. Yet Eddard trusted that Robert actually cared about anything other than his own glory... Eddard knew better than that.

Mayhaps the height of the denial of Stark truth comes when Robb tells Catelyn that Sansa married Tyrion.

"He swore to trader her for his brother," she said numbly. "Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he weore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?"

Catelyn's words set this up, but Robb's response is the kicker!

"He's the Kingslayer's brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood."

He implies that oathbreaking does not run in the Stark's blood. HA!

What about Robb's recent marriage to Jeyne Westerling? What about Ned's warning to Cersei? What about Eddard's confession? What about Jon's release of Ygritte? What about Jon's killing of Qhorin and that subsequent mess? What about Robb's declaration of independence? What about Brandon's no-show for his own wedding? What about Ned's ******* from the war?

What about Catelyn freeing the Kingslayer? Rickard Karstark went berzerk and murdered two Lannisters for that... and Robb executed him for that and made himself a kinslayer. Notably, Robb pardoned his mother for her treachery. But the culmination of this came at the Twins when Robb met Roose on the eve of the Red Wedding. First, Roose showed Theon's skin to Catelyn who secretly exulted in Theon's suffering. Then Roose proposed that Robb keep Theon as a hostage against Greyjoy attacks... and thats when Catelyn uttered the following:

"Hostage?" The word raised Catelyn's hackles. Hostages were often exchanged. "Lord Bolton, I hope you are not suggesting that we free that man that killed my sons."

WHAT?!?! Don't you think that's exactly what Rickard Karstark said to Robb? Catelyn conveniently forgot that that's exactly what she did with the man that killed Karstark's sons... she freed him... and there was not even a hostage exchange! She just let Jaime go.

Self-delusion and denials of hard truths seem to be what the Starks taught their brood.

 

[JDP]

Hmmm, nice post, Boaz. I'd have to disagree with some of your points though.

We've talked a lot about preparation (or lack thereof) of the Stark children before their world was turned upside down. All of them, including Jon, seem to have been encouraged to be dreamers... Bran to be a Knight, Sansa to be Queen of Beauty, Jon to be legitimized, Robb to be a great lord.

I don't think this is really true - they weren't encouraged to be dreamers; Bran could well have become a knight when he grew up (no-one encouraged him after the fall); similarly, as a good-looking young lady of a powerful house, Sansa was quite likely to become a 'Queen-of-Beauty' and marry a knight or lord; Jon, as far as I remember, was never encouraged to dream of legitimacy by the Starks; and Robb was destined to be Lord of Winterfell upon Eddard's death.

They weren't given to unrealistic dreams, and nor were they protected from the harshness of life - see Bran's attendance of the execution of the deserter. According to Jon, Ned wouldn't want to see Bran flinch as the man was killed - that's not very 'dreamy', nor is it shying away from a harsh reality.

All were given montrous predators on a whim.

Ha, ha, this is completely true! What a bunch of freaks...

"He's the Kingslayer's brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood."

He implies that oathbreaking does not run in the Stark's blood. HA!

Yep, you're quite right with your points here, it's hypocritical.

I think that hypocracy would be the Starks' main problem, not an inability to face the truth. They could not tolerate oathbreaking/dishonour in others, but readily overlooked it in themselves.

 

[The Curious Orange]

Lady and Nymeria

- I've worried about these two since the start. When will Arya and Nymeria be reunited? What does Lady's loss mean for Sansa?

Ned's *******

- or is he? If the R+L=J theory is correct, then there's no loss of honour on Ned.

Yes, Robb is pretty dumb. In all fairness to him, though, he is young, and most of his mistakes involve trusting those around him - Theon, Bolton, Karstark, Catelyn - and he never should have broken his promise to the Freys. And as Jaime reflects, everyone is an oathbreaker, in so far as all the major players, Stark, Lannister and Tyrell alike - supported the Robbellion.

With hindsight, Robb should have taken harsher action against Cat - I'm not saying he should have killed her, but he should have found some lesser punishment to appease Karstark. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

And yes, I guess Robb and Catelyn are slightly hypocritical - it certainly provides a nice irony to the Red Wedding.

 

[Wiggum]

Catelyn is a Stark by marriage, not by upbringing. It's a stretch for me for her to be so inclusive within this analysis.

If there's anything the Stark children have been able to do it's adjust to harshness of their lives, not avoid the truth as you put it. Every child has severe misconceptions about the reality of the world they live in, it's in how they adapt that you find their character.

 

[Boaz]

Wiggum, Of course most of what I post is a stretch. Catelyn was born a Tully, but had responsibility of raising the Stark pack. So I feel she gets some of the blame for their lack of preparation.

Yes, the wolfpack has adapted on the run... literally. Perhaps that is due to good parenting... the way they've been able to rebound from emotional, social, and physical disasters.

JDP, I think that just by claiming Jon and raising him with Robb that Eddard encouraged him to dream of legitimacy.

Gotta run....

 

[Boaz]

My apologies for leaving earlier...

Posting is all about stirring the pot, throwing out wild ideas, and playing devil's advocate.

As for the main story of ASOIAF, the bottom line is that the Starks are the protagonists and the Lannisters are the antagonists. I'm just saying that the Starks are not as squeaky clean as they think they are. To put it another way, both the Starks and the Lannisters think their $#!^ don't smell!

Robb broke his oath.

Tywin took Shae to bed.

Cersei has betrayed everyone.

Sansa lied and got her own wolf killed.

Eddard screwed up by warning Cersei.

Tyrion murdered his father for puttin him on trial for murdering his nephew.

Jaime threw an eight year old boy from a fifth storey window.

Maybe the Starks have less $#!^ than the Lannisters, but it still stinks.

 

[TK-421]

Boaz, you are direwolf in sheep's clothing. Your approach is at first measured and calculated, then you go for the throat with this last post.

Even though I also like the Starks, I agree 100% with your psychoanalysis, my captain!

 

[Boaz]

Since Egg, Wert, Edd and the rest are not chiming in... I'll continue by arguing the Starks case.

Of the parents that we get a decent look at in ASOIAF, none are better than the Starks, except maybe Davos. That's a scary statement.

If Robert, Lysa, Cersei, Jaime, Doran, Oberyn, Craster, Walder, Roose, Chataya, Randyll Tarly and Tom O'Sevens lived in the U.S., they'd be in jail.

Tywin, Stannis, Balon, and Lady Tanda are hardly winners either.

No, the Starks actually loved their children. They nurtured passions of their children. They tried to prepare their children to be leaders. They sacrificed to give their children a future. Here are some examples... Ned lied to save Sansa's life while Randyll promised to murder his heir. Catelyn never left Bran's side while Roose offered to give his son over to be hanged. Ned kept his ******* while Robert tried to single handedly create a baby boom. Ned taught his sons to dispense justice while Oberyn and Walder promoted assassination and revenge.

Eddard and Catelyn loved each other and let their children see that love.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Boaz....

Some points are right on some are not.

The most obvious difference between the Lannisters and Starks is quite evident. While the Starks will break certain oaths they do so with trepidation and knowledge that they will pay for it. Jaime,Tyrion, and Cersei all break their oaths with the surety that they are that might and influence will allow them to avoid repercussions.

Why do we always berate Jon for his actions with Ygritte. He made an oath to defend the realms of man from everything on the other side of that wall....that would be the greater part of the oath. Yes there is a line that says "take no woman for wife" but I think Martin paints the picture that is was neccessary to sleep with Ygritte for the sake of his larger oath. You could make the case that he didnt have to enjoy it so much....but Tyrion said it best when he said "When yer in bed with an ugly woman, waiting doesnt make her prettier. Close yer eyes and get it over with." This would be no different than a military office ignoring a presidential directive that conflicted with the Constitution. Sure the second part of that oath says "obey the orders of those appointed over me" but the preceding part says "support and defend the constitution". Sometimes you have to break the letter of the law to fulfill the spirit.

You know Eddard never broke an oath to the realm. He did however lie to his friend Robert. But I think we can see that was a lie of compassion and not malice and give him a pass. Its also clear he regretted doing it. Which makes him so much different than Cersei. When he was at Roberts deathbed he was scribbling the words of succession down as Robert spoke them....he substituted "heir" for "children" when it came to whom he would protect the throne for. Thereby absolving himself from eventually having Joffrey put to death (Stannis on the throne was a death sentence for Joffrey).

So Boaz...let me get this straight. Youre condemning the Starks for having a teenager who think the Nights Watch is noble (Jon), a teenager who succumbs to hormones (Robb), a young girl who believes in fairy tales (Sansa), and a mother who does something horribly dumb in the face of losing the last of her children (Cat)? Yer kidding me right. The Starks are human. At the end of the day each of them did what was right (except Catelyn) and faced the punishments for their crimes. Jon realized those were his brothers and embraced the reality (evident with Sam's introduction story), Robb apologized to Frey and died for it, and Sansa finally lost her idealism and moved on. Sansa's case is complicated because without Lady she has lost her Starkiness.

If yer gonna play devils advocate and smear a character, do so with Stannis, or Renly or even Beric Dondarrion...but leave the Starks (and Snows) alone. They are too easily defended...

 

[cape_royds]

Jaime slew his King to save the city. That's oathbreaking, but it's a pretty honourable oathbreaking. Avoiding repercussions? Far from being unpunished, Jaime has been reviled throughout the realm for the rest of his life.

I flung him from a window, however, goes beyond the pale!


But I think Boaz argument is tenable. The Starks got badly overtaken by Winter this time around. What else can you call Robb's silly dalliance with Jeyne? Someone should have told him, "this ain't Summer any more, boy! You vowed to bed a weasel. Deal with it."

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Jaime slew his King to save the city. That's oathbreaking, but it's a pretty honourable oathbreaking. Avoiding repercussions? Far from being unpunished, Jaime has been reviled throughout the realm for the rest of his life.

I flung him from a window, however, goes beyond the pale!


But I think Boaz argument is tenable. The Starks got badly overtaken by Winter this time around. What else can you call Robb's silly dalliance with Jeyne? Someone should have told him, "this ain't Summer any more, boy! You vowed to bed a weasel. Deal with it."

"The things I do for love".....

One time in Jaimes life he did something for the greater good and somehow hes on par with Ned? Did he even kill Aerys for the sake of the smallfolk or was it something else (like taking the city for his father)? I need to go back and reread that section. Regardless even in this my point still stands, Jaime is bitter and slightly angry with people for thinking he "has **** for honor." Whereas a Stark would have the decency to beat himself up over something like this even in the face of forgiveness and pardons. A Stark would throw himself wholeheartedly into an honorable existence to attone (like Jon after the wildling escapades) whereas a Lannister would brood and call the world unfair and continue to lack honor.

Dont ya know, Boaz's arguments are never tenable. Its in the forum rules somewhere. You probably didnt read em (why should you be any different).

Im not arguing that the Starks didnt live up to their house motto. Certain members failed. Not Jon or Arya for certain, and Sansa and Bran at least are still on the field of play....but you have to give Robb a pass because hes a teenager and Edd didnt even understand what winter was yet. My gawd peoples, he stares down Greatjon Umber, defeats Lannister armies twice in the field and still is considered a failure because he has hormones. He paid the price for being mortal. All in all Winter has come for the Stark children and the fact that theyre still alive and consistently learning is a testament to Ned and Cat, not an albatross around the neck of the Dire Wolf.

 

[TK-421]

Aegon, I would of agreed with your comparison between the Starks and the Lannisters, had you stopped at Cersei. Our favourite dwarf (and a character I will defend to the end) surely knows ALOT of the reprecussions of ones actions and is living proof of it. Everything he does is for a reason and he certainly never thought of himself as being beyond any reprecussions for his actions, whether they be in his personal life as Hand. What Tyrion had to learn very quickly is that last shred of hope for his family accepting him for who he is was torn to bits when he was accused of Joff's murder, stolen the whore he loved and denied Casterly Rock as heir to Tywin. That left no choice to commit kinship.

With regards to Jaime, I think a pre-golden hand, humiliated Jaime would of thought of himself as above the law. But the new Jaime knows better and is secretely hoping his dear twin finds out the hard way.

 

[vervain_ashe]

What about Jon's killing of Qhorin and that subsequent mess?

I've only read the series once, and am on my second go around, but I thought Jon killed Qhorin at his own request... if you will. Qhorin told Jon that Jon must kill him in order to make his 'desertion' of the Night's Watch seem somehow more authentic.

But this is why the printed word never gets retired. It can always be re-read.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Aegon, I would of agreed with your comparison between the Starks and the Lannisters, had you stopped at Cersei. Our favourite dwarf (and a character I will defend to the end) surely knows ALOT of the reprecussions of ones actions and is living proof of it. Everything he does is for a reason and he certainly never thought of himself as being beyond any reprecussions for his actions, whether they be in his personal life as Hand. What Tyrion had to learn very quickly is that last shred of hope for his family accepting him for who he is was torn to bits when he was accused of Joff's murder, stolen the whore he loved and denied Casterly Rock as heir to Tywin. That left no choice to commit kinship.

With regards to Jaime, I think a pre-golden hand, humiliated Jaime would of thought of himself as above the law. But the new Jaime knows better and is secretely hoping his dear twin finds out the hard way.

Of course Jaime is allowed to grow. I would never say otherwise, however the span that we see is insignificant compared to the life he led prior....killing kings, schtooping his sister, betraying his brother. He is a selfish person whose only redeeming feature in the first two books is his love of Tyrion.

As for Tyrion, he is a lot of things. But a moral compass he is not. He does have a minstrel killed to protect Shae, oh and dont forget how he got Shae in the first place....he seemed rather nonplussed when Bronn told him he strongarmed Shae away from a knight. Why? Because he is selfish. He repeatedly verbally abused people who were incapable of defending themselves....mostly those who needed it but lets face it, he is a bully with words. Maybe its some sort of coping mechanism, its still meanspirited. I like Tyrion. But he is scathing, harsh and brutal to those who are lesser than he...like his father and brother and sister.....

So there....

 

[viZion]

I was thinking about Robb's actions a lot today and ended up rereading this thread. Very interesting. I've got some thoughts. First, I can't see how Robb should be given a pass because he's just a teenager:

1) Teenagers in this series are treated as men at much younger ages than our own world. A man grown in ASOIAF is 15 and there are plenty that young serving as knights and soldiers. Lots of boys much younger serve in battles as squires and do their fair share of killing. Barristan Selmy entered his first tourney at the age of 10! To say they are teenagers in a way that implies they don't know much about the world is wrong. People grow up fast in this world.

2) He put the crown on his head and called himself King. He has to act like one. He's not King like Joffrey who has a Queen Regent *and* a Hand to hide behind until he comes of age. He's a king through and though. There's no excuse to do what he did when his own Kingdom isn't even secure yet. Robert thought plenty with his penis but at least he had a solid Kingdom. Robb doesn't and needs to wait until his own is secure before bedding random girls.

3) He should have been thinking about more than just his own honor. There's just no excuse for it at all. This is not just about "screwing up but ready to face the consequences", this is about costing himself not only his own life but the life of everyone he loves and the lives of thousands of others who support him. Those are simply consequences too big to face. He seems like he would have been taught better than this which leads me to my second part...

How realistic was it for Robb to go and marry Jeyne after he had already promised himself to the Freys? I've been thinking about this a lot and it almost doesn't make sense. Like I mean, just completely out of character. What precedent is there for him to sleep with a girl once and then suddenly feel he *has* to marry her and risk his kingdom because of it. He had to know the Freys would bail on him since they were reluctant allies to begin with. Does he do it because she's highborn? Would he have done the same thing if she just happened to be some caring lowborn serving girl?

I just seriously can't see him throwing away his Kingdom for his honor. He was taught better than that. If he was going to make a mistake and face the consequences it should have been sleeping with Jeyne and then leaving her. Then the consequences would have been some small question to his honor -- and, honestly, he would be the only one questioning himself... no one else would give a damn about his taking Jeyne's virginity and then leaving -- and he might have had a fighting chance at saving his Kingdom.

Please don't say it was "lol the hormones lol" because that shouldn't have been an issue based on my above reasons, especially #1 and the fact that he could have faced the opposite, much smaller consequences of the ones he chose to face. The whole situation is borderline questionable to me and I think GRRM may have made a small mistake writing it the way he did.

It's *possible* that Lord Frey and Lord Bolton were plotting against Robb for awhile; probably since he lost the North. It would have been reasonable for the story to have been written in a way where the Red Wedding is Robb's own wedding when he returns to marry a Frey. It certainly would have made a bit more sense that way and not changed much else in the story.

 

[Boaz]

You mentioned that Robb did not have a Hand. I also noted the same thing in another thread today. Catelyn and Brynden seemed to have good counsel for Robb. But never formally delegating the multitude of tasks that needed to be done seems to be a glaring error in retrospect. Robb's bannermen stood near him and gave counsel, but it seems it fell to Robb to officially make all the decisions. A cabinet or Small Council could have freed his mind from the daily tasks and allowed him to strategically prosecute his war in a more effective manner.

Here's my hypothetical Small Council. I don't know that Robb needed to fill all of these positions. For instance, I'm not sure he needs all of these Wardens, but having a greater title than Castellan of Winterfell might have assisted Ser Rodrik in exerting more authority.

Hand - Brynden, this gives the River lords a real say in the government.

Master of Laws - Any lord that gave excellent counsel, i.e. Bolton or Karstark. But then both of them betrayed Robb... doh!

Master of Coin - Walder Frey, as the rich Lord of the Crossing, he knows much about getting his fair share. Also, I don't think Walder would allow Robb to cut him out of the Small Council.

Warden of the North - Rodrik or Mors Umber. They are both noted fighters who stayed north. Though I think this power was unspoken and assumed to lie with the Castellan of Winterfell.

Warden of the South - Somehow I seem to recall that maybe Brynden actually held this title. Someone please help me.

High Septon - Whoever was septon at Riverrun.

Grand Maester - Luwin or Vyman. Since Vyman was closest to the King's mobile court, he gets my vote.

Master of Whispers - Black Walder, if Lord Walder were not included, he'd get another of his brood on the Council. It might be helpful to keep Black Walder close. Then again out of his sense of honor, Robb might choose to not make that position as part of his Small Council... though mayhaps Sybelle Westerling might have served well.

Master of Ships - Wyman Manderly, as the Lord of White Harbor, he possesses the largest fleet of the Northmen. Though I could see Robb at the very beginning of his reign splitting this title and making Theon his admiral in the west.

Robb neither had a Kingsguard. He had his sworn swords that numbered perhaps thirty. Mallister, Bracken, Mormont, Tallhart, and Karstark were some of the young fighters to joing this group, iirc.

Edit: As to your last point, viz... I think Bolton was contemplating betrayal for a long time. The whole Glover debacle at Duskendale was probably Bolton ridding himself of the troops that were absolutely loyal to Robb. Remember Robb and Tyrion heard the news of Tarly's victory at Duskendale independently, yet both were incredulous as to what Glover was doing there. Just like Sybelle, I think Bolton sent Tywin a message that was unmistakable... "I'll sacrifice this child/army to prove my sincerity."