The Burning Letter

[Koopa]

Lots of thread probably exist already about but...

Anyways, i was riding my bike, through the freezing weather, and my mind was skipping here and there, suddenly, dont know why i was thinking about Cersei predicament, then about what jaime would do. Then i was thinking about this big long thin whit bird that eats fish called a 'reiger' in dutch that i was passing by, and then my mind skipped to the Darry kingsguard, or some other kingsguard who was sentenced to death for having sex. I put the two together and came to the conclusion that Jaime was indeed going to defend his sister, if only for self-preservation, cause if Cersei gets condamned, so does he, and Tommen as well. Then i was having doubts about wether that was true seeing that i dont remember the Church of the Seven Gods(forgot their name) having any knowledge of the queen sleeping with jaime with Tommen being the result. that said whatever cersei says about her being a lion, she seems a woman who is gonna break rather easily, and if she does, then she will probably reveal all (despite her vehement protection/love for her kids). I have to admit that is a big if. Like Boaz would say ; yoour thoughts on this rehashed theory of mine if you would.

 

[Koopa]

No thougts whatsoever?

 

[Boaz]

Sorry, Kiwi. The format of the post kept me from giving it any real attention. But after a second look, I'll chime in.

The act of burning Cersei's letter could be either Jaime ending their romantic relationship or Jaime getting rid of the evidence before he goes back to her. I had viewd Jaime's actions to mean he was not going to Cersei's aid. I think he is sick of the deceit and the constant dishonoring of his White Cloak. I think he's done with Cersei, unless she consented to marry him and defy the entire kingdom.

I think Jaime has decided to live for justice. His predicament reminds me of Thomas Becket and Thomas More. Both of these men were placed in positions of high authority because they were cronies of kings. Becket was Archbishop of Canterbury during the reign of Henry II and More was Lord Chancellor of England for Henry VIII. Both were intimate with the royal family. Both Henry's expected both Thomas' to respond with gratitude by supporting all of their royal policies. But something happened to More and Becket after they took their offices. Both seemed to develop their own consciences and ideals of justice that were contrary to the Kings' wishes. Becket was assassinated (with or without Henry II's order) and More was beheaded.

Jaime was named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and Warden of the East for his close connections to the throne. He's refused gifts and titles from the Hand (Tywin). He's quarreled with the old guard of the Lannisters (Kevan). He's refused the Regent's offer to also become the Hand. He is no longer interested in killing Starks, in fact he's trying to save them. He's given away a Valyrian Steel blade.

By putting himself at odds with Cersei and Kevan, he's numbering his days of being Lord Commander. But then again, Cersei may not live long enough to kill Jaime. If Cersei and Tommen fall, Jaime goes with them. And this is your argument... very pragmatic.

Before losing his hand, I'd say Jaime would always go to Cersei. Jaime has changed more than physically.

In my mind, Jaime is now a defender of children when he's not threating to fling them with trebuchets. In my mind, Jaime is now a dispenser of justice when he's not sleeping with the queen. In my mind, Jaime is now a merciful man when he's not sending Freys off to their deaths. In my mind, Jaime is now an honest man.

He always thought his sword could reverse any dishonor. Losing his sword hand has changed that. He now wants to earn honor. In my mind, Jaime will become the new Eddard.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

He always thought his sword could reverse any dishonor. Losing his sword hand has changed that. He now wants to earn honor. In my mind, Jaime will become the new Eddard.

You had me til you compared him to Eddard. How about we settle on him being the new Tyrion? Begrudging help to those who are unfortunate and absolute indifference to the plights of those who mean him ill.

Truth be told I thought Cersei kinda declared her love in that letter....offered to marry Jaime with some weird love ritual. So he would have to burn the letter to keep from making Stannis' accusations loom a little closer to the surface. How dumb would you have to be not to connect the dots between accusations of impropriety and then they get married right after?

 

[Boaz]

I think Jaime is gonna do the right thing... and die from it. He will be ready to pardon Sansa and Arya and bring them into the King's Peace, but they'll both be plotting to kill him, Tommen and Cersei.

Eddard had to die because he knew Jon's secret. But if Eddard had survived his trip to the steps of the Great Sept he might have become a serisous player. He'd have to have publicly taken the black, but once free of Lannister guards he might have proclaimed the Lannisters adulterers, liars, thieves and murderers. If he'd allied the North and the Riverlands with Stannis, then the Lannisters would have had a poor time being in the middle of the Stannis/Stark/Tully alliance, the Renly/Tyrell alliance, and the Greyjoys. I don't know how quickly the Martells would have been to support Joffrey if that were the case... in fact I know that Doran would not endager his lands when Dany was on the horizon. Anyway, Ned would never have let Theon go and he'd never have left the North so undefended, so the Greyjoys would still have seceded but they'd probably have had an unspoken and uneasy truce with the Starks... until Stannis could turn his attention to them.

Fast forward to Stannis' victory. Eddard cannot now be lenient in any sense towards Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Tommen, Joffrey, Myrcella, Kevan, Renly, Mace, Balon, Victarion, Aeron, or Theon. Asha, Lancel and Willas mignt not keep their heads even if they'd bend the knee. But I see Eddard's sense of personal responsibility and desire for revenge for Robert and Bran to drive him to become cruel. He'd quarreled with Robert over Rhaegar's children, but this time he has to know that traitors and their offspring must die... and Eddard would have to do it. He did not use a headsman. He killed Sansa's wolf himself. If Eddard took KL for Stannis, then Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella would have to die... and Eddard would have to kill them himself. Why? His sense of justice would demand it. He would want to be merciful, but loosing Lannisters would mean fighting the war all over again later. And if he saved the kids for Stannis, then Melissandre would get them... and Ned would not allow even Cersei's children to be cruelly sacrificed to a pagan god. No, Ned would have to kill them with his own hands. And he'd have gone down in history as another Kingslayer... or mayhaps the Kidslayer.

Ned would think, You people don't know that I had to do it. If I did not, then that Red Witch would have cut their hearts out. If I'd let them go, then your children would have died defending the kingdom against the return of Cersei's children. How dare you judge me! Sounds like Jaime excuse for killing Aerys.

Mayhaps Stannis would have grated on Eddard like he does everyone else. Mayhaps Melissandre's evil acts would have driven Eddard to renounce Stannis and to proclaim Jon I of House Targaryen. The Martells and the Tullys might have readily accepted this.

All I'm saying is that living would have meant that Ned would have had to have become a proficient player at the Game of Thrones.

Actually that's not all I'm saying. I think one of GRRM's themes here is role-reversal to gain understanding of right and wrong. The Starks started as the undoubted protagonists... pure and noble. The Lannisters started out as the antagonists... degenerate and vile. Well, for the most part those identities are unchanged, but in some ways the situation is clouded over. Jaime and Tyrion are tyring to do justice. Both have tried to show mercy to Sansa. Robb forswore himself and he became a kinslayer. Arya is a little demon child. Jon's broken vows, many vows.

I know I'm off Kiwi's letter, but I can't stop 'cause it's all related.

Arya will continue to acquire skills in dealing death. But will she become the complete tool of the Faceless Men? Will she only fulfill their contracts and missions? I somehow think that Arya's origin is too deeply imprinted upon her heart to not apply her assassin skills in pursuit of her own revenges. In other words, she'll become Jaime Lannister.

Back to Kiwi's topic... In a perfect Lannister world, I think that the old Jaime would go to Cersei and cover up their family's secrets. If Tywin was alive, if Jaime had his hand, if Tyrion had not revealed Cersei's other lovers, if Jaime had not sworn to protect Sansa, then yes, Jaime would go to Cersei in a heartbeat.

 

[viZion]

But if Eddard had survived his trip to the steps of the Great Sept he might have become a serisous player. He'd have to have publicly taken the black, but once free of Lannister guards he might have proclaimed the Lannisters adulterers, liars, thieves and murderers.

Explain how he would do this. You know his honor would require him to honor the words he said on the steps and take the black. He would have taken the black and then stayed completely out of the problems of the kingdom as befitting an honorable man of the Night's Watch.

 

[southron sword]

i got one for yas. what if everyone finds out about all this and jaime has to take the black, and he does. then he goes to the wall and meets up with john and stannis. and then dany comes along to defeat the others and marries jaime. thats some crazy stuff.

 

[The Curious Orange]

I think Jaime will die - my only questions are whether he will kill Cersei before he goes, and who will kill him - my money's on Arya.

Cersei will escape her current predicament, but she'll end up on the streets in rags, selling herself for pennies. Sansa will return to KL in glory - as Lady of the Vale and the North, and Cersei, being a f***wit, will blame Sansa for everything and try to kill her, thus hastening her own demise. Jaime kills Cersei, Arya kills Jaime, Sansa bends the knee to Dany.

 

[pan naranus]

A couple of point you might consider in contrast of that scenario…
A. Dany has a few issues to solve first i.e dragons eat little kids and the sons of the harpy making trouble. Not to mention at least 3 suitors and a mage on their way from westerose and an imp to boot.
b. neither Sansa nor Arya are even close to finish their training - the cersei/jaime relationship should solve itself by the time the truly enter the game.
c. the fate of crsei is already hinted - ungregor vs. sendor calgne the unwilling champion of the seven, trail by sword on the fate of the queen. my money is on the hound, but I thought the viper will come trough the last time around so...
jaime on the other hand is trying to rebuild his world as a just man. I think that the burning of the letter is his way of washing his hands clean of cersei.
d.And where exactly is the showdown? Fields of fire II?

 

[viZion]

The viper probably lost to Gregor to conveniently setup an epic showdown between Gregor and Sandor. Everyone wants to see that.

 

[Boaz]

Sandor as champion of the Seven. This is news to me. I don't think he's any longer into fighting other peoples battles... but he would see Gregor as his own personal battle.

viz, back to Eddard. Any oath made under duress to thieves that allows them to steal the goverment and that leaves a man's children at the mercy of murderers does not have to be honored. Eddard should say what he needs to say to get away and then turn the tables on the Lannisters. Where is the honor is leaving your babes in a lion's den?

 

[viZion]

Boaz, I honestly don't know. I only know that Eddard is wildly adherent to anything he says under oath or whatever. Besides, what's to stop the Lannisters from simply saying, "You uphold your end of the bargain or your daughters die"? In fact, I think that's the reason why they forced him to take the black in the first place. They said, "You take the black or your daughters die".

As I'm reading through a Clash of Kings, Catelyn says more than once that "Robb is his father's son". Probably foreshadows his death due to his insane notion of honor.

Also, if there's any humor to be found in the death of Eddard it has to be the look on Varys' face when Joffrey ordered Eddard's death. Martin never directly described it but I can imagine it was quite a sight. Varys is only described as wildly waving his arms in the air when Joffrey announces Eddard's sentence. Probably the first time the spider has ever been caught unawares.

 

[Boaz]

Yes, Varys was the very person who delivered the threat to Eddard... Simply put, it was Sansa's life or yours.

I know Eddard was sick, delirious, malnourished, grieving for his friends, worried over his family, and deprived of rest.

It was a terrible choice he was forced to make.

I know we're debating what if's... Joffrey made this whole topic moot by calling in Ser Ilyn.

 

[The Curious Orange]

For my money if there is an UnGregor as Cersei's champion vs Sandor fight, then I reckon UnGregor will win, Sandor dies and Cersei walks free.

Martin would never write it the obvious way...

 

[JDP]

My gut instinct is that however it pans out, this trial will be the end of Cersei.

HOWEVER, it might be too tempting a storyline for GRRM to have her out on the loose, looking for revenge on her treacherous brother(s).

(I'm sure that Jaime's burning of the letter was him washing his hands of Cersei)

I'd like to see her get hers after a swift trial. It would serve her right for both being a heavyweight-bint and giving the Sparrows so much power; it would be sweetly ironic if they immediately use said power to part her head from her neck.

 

[The Curious Orange]

It would serve her right for both being a heavyweight-bint and giving the Sparrows so much power

Which is why I honestly believe that there is a fate worse than death in store for Cersei. Closely followed, I hope, by a gruesome and painful death.
I want to see her scrabbling in the gutter eating rat sh1t to stay alive...

 

[juleska]

I think Jaime will die - my only questions are whether he will kill Cersei before he goes, and who will kill him - my money's on Arya.

Cersei will escape her current predicament, but she'll end up on the streets in rags, selling herself for pennies. Sansa will return to KL in glory - as Lady of the Vale and the North, and Cersei, being a f***wit, will blame Sansa for everything and try to kill her, thus hastening her own demise. Jaime kills Cersei, Arya kills Jaime, Sansa bends the knee to Dany.

Sorry! Answering another old thread, I know!

Jamie won't be killed by Arya because even with his bad sword hand he's a better fighter than Arya. But either way, Jamie's not on her list....but Cersei is. I don't see Arya getting close enough to kill either, frankly. Most of the ppl on her list (maybe all of them) have thus far been killed by others.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

I think by series' end everyone on Arya's list will be dead, but I dint think she'll have killed them all, or even most of them. For whatever that's worth.

As an aside, with everyone predicting disgrace before death for our favorite queen, is there any female equivalent of taking the black that we know? In theory, (I can't imagine she ever would) could Cersei join the silent sisters or something as a way of repenting her sins?

 

[juleska]

I think by series' end everyone on Arya's list will be dead, but I dint think she'll have killed them all, or even most of them. For whatever that's worth.

As an aside, with everyone predicting disgrace before death for our favorite queen, is there any female equivalent of taking the black that we know? In theory, (I can't imagine she ever would) could Cersei join the silent sisters or something as a way of repenting her sins?

The Silent Sisters is the closest thing to The Wall for women, but honestly can you imagine Cersei shutting up for the rest of her days?

 

[Boaz]

jules, never apologize for thread rez.