Loose threads from A Game of Thrones

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Heyo

I just finished rereading AGOT on an extremely long plane flight....

I noticed a couple of loose ends that havent been beaten to death yet that may or may not be of actual import to the rest of the story....feel free to comment on any or ignore me at your leisure.

So in no particular order....

1) When the 3-eyed crow is attempting to wake Bran in the dream sequence, there are a number of skeletons at the base of the tower of people the raven was unable to wake....

2) During the "attack on comatose Bran" aftermath it is observed that Hodor is acting strangely of late (Hal Mullen)

3) Maester Luwin gives Bran an obsidian arrowhead (which he may or may not have taken with him) but more importantly he gives Rickon 4 of em.

4) It is never settled exactly where Robert Arryn was going to be fostered.....Lord Frey adds Stannis as a possibility apparently after talking to Jon Arryn. That would be insignificant except Frey is the only one to mention Stannis and even Lysa mention the Lannisters as a destination. George goes out of his way to mention this so while I think its import is self-evident it hasnt been mentioned.

5) Tywin actually did try to kill Tyrion (in a roundabout fashion) at the first Lannister/Stark battle with Roose Bolton. He placed Tyrion on the left with no support in hopes that Bolton (believed to be Robb Stark) would overrun the unsupported left, dash through in an attempt at a rout, then get driven into the river by the sharply wheeling (and prepared) Lannister pikemen. Tyrion failed to be routed and Roose was able to retreat in good order.

6) Sansa has a dream she's picking flowers with Lady. Its vivid enough I think it was an actual "green dream" or what not.

7) Rickon has the same dream Bran does about father being in the crypts. Neds dead, baby.....Neds dead.

Enjoy

 

[JDP]

Hey, great post, Aegon. In response to your points:

1) I'd forgotten about these skeletons. I'm of the opinion that their identity is not important - they simply foretold that Bran would have to 'open his third eye' to survive.

2) Hmmm... Hodor acting strange. Maybe an unconscious Bran reaching out with unformed warging powers? Any other ideas?

3) The obsidian arrowheads kind of suggest that Rickon is going to be facing some heavy Other opposition. Could be interesting...

4) I figured Robert Arryn would be fostered with Stannis, after Jon found out about the illegitimacy of Cersei's brood. I can't really remember (but I'm feeling a bit Boazy, so I'll go out on a limb), but was there some suggestion that Lysa may have had Jon poisoned to stop him fostering Robert to anyone? The thought was lurking in my brain, but I'm not sure where it came from...

5) I don't think that this was a direct attempt to kill Tyrion, but it was certainly extremely heartless to use his own son in this way (no surprise considering Tywin's character, though).

6) Hmmm... Can't remember this, but I doubt it was a full-on 'green' dream, but merely the link between the Stark children and their direwolves.

7) Yep, the little 'uns saw it coming. More general familial inter-cogniscence (yes, that is a made-up term) than anything 'green'? Dunno...

 

[Boaz]

Egg, Good start for this thread.

1) I started a re-read this fall and I had some thoughts regarding Bran's dream, but I can't remember them off hand. I'm gonna go re-re-read it.

3) You think the number four is significant? Could be. There might be a coincidence between Rickon and the Israelite hero King David. The famous duel between young David and Goliath, the gigantic Philistine hero, takes place in I Samuel 17. Goliath was supposedly unbeatable. He was nine feet tall and armored in bronze from head to toe. Comparatively, the Israelites at the time were barely out of the Stone Age. Anyway, David defeated Goliath with a stone from his sling.

The comparison to Rickon comes in two aspects. Rickon and David were both the youngest sons of their families... both were thought to be too young to take up arms against their enemies. And in verse 40 of I Samuel 17, David armed himself with five stones before his battle with Goliath. Why five? Well it turns out in II Samuel 21:16-22 that Goliath had four kinsmen who were big nasty fighters too. David may have just picked up five stones to fill his pouch or he may have taken one stone for each giant... now that's confidence!

So Bran got one arrowhead presumably to kill The Other... and Rickon got four to kill his kinsmen? I dunno, just a thought.

4) I could have sworn that Varys and Eddard discussed Robert's fostering to Stannis or maybe Catelyn discusses this with Stannis and Renly in ACOK. I thought the pupose of this was just to show the Jon-Stannis connection and their growing concerns regarding Cersei.

6) Sansa and Lady picking flowers... Are you sure you don't mean pushing up daisies?

7) So it seems Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, and Jon all had warg/green dreams. Is that from their Stark blood, from magic wolves, or from their connection to the wolves?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Im gonna have to reread my reread....

Okay, the Sansa/Lady bit was poorly explained by me. She has a dream about Lady thats particularly vivid. Lady is already dead at this point. I think she still has some mystic connection going on, even across the threshold of death and will not become too much a protege of Littlefinger because she still in fact possesses some of her "Starkiness". She just has to open her prophetic third eye (in a smaller vein than Bran) and embrace Lady a little more than the others have to, to reacquaint herself with her inner strength that allows Arya to traverse the globe, Bran to warg-out and Robb to do a damn fine impersonation of a scarecrow with a wolf head.

Robert Arryns fosterage--I cant seem to find the passage where Varys and Ed speak of it. But Im sure its there because its oddly familiar to me. Regardless though I do not remember Varys speaking of Tywin as a possibility only of Stannis. Every other time its mentioned (including Robert baratheon and Lysa and excepting Lord Walder Frey) its Tywin. At least one of those two people should know what Jon was doing, so why the secrecy from them? I dont have an answer, I do think though the change in plans is what probably got Jon killed.

I do think Hodor was acting queer because Bran was dreaming his coma dream, and that the bones of the fallen were that....people that failed prior to Bran and the return of magic. So the crow had done this before, just not with many successes.

Stark family dreams-We all think Bran is going to be the "super-stark" or something. But it turns out Rickon may be as deep into the mystic side as Bran. Probably not going to come of anything because of the timeline but there ya go.

Way to much thinking on the arrowheads Boaz....way too much. Try decaffeinated instead...I was just saying quite simply "Rickon has dragonglass". Of course that whole scene could have been to educate the reader on the effects of dragonglass.

Enjoy....now back to my rereread

 

[Boaz]

I do think Hodor was acting queer

But Renly did not go to Winterfell.

Try decaffeinated instead

I quit coffee ten years ago... except for Thai iced coffee, but I only drink that a few times a year. No, it's these darn Jolly Ranchers... I eat them by the gross.

Okay, I thought the significance was in the number, not the arrowheads.

So which Starks do you think that the Crow tried to get to open their third eye?

Ned dreamed a lot. His dreams of the Tower of Joy seemed to hide something even from him. Could the Crow have tried to get Ned to see something?

Lyanna changed her life and the lives of her family dramatically, if you can believe that she ran off with Rhaegar. If so, then mayhaps she did this after having a green dream/vision from the Crow that dove-tailed with Rhaegar's interpretation of TPTWP prophecy.

Benjen went over the Wall and disappeared around the time that the Crow appeared to Bran, the dragons awakened, the Others appeared, and that magic seemed to come back to Westeros. If Ben had a green dream/vision, mayhaps this lead to his disappearance upon some unknown quest.

Are you suggesting that the Crow is also trying to get through to Sansa?

 

[Wiggum]

But Renly did not go to Winterfell.

Hey Boaz, you owe me a new keyboard.

The one I'm using suddenly got covered in Diet Coke.

 

[viZion]

Hello everyone. This thread actually got me to register. Heh. Anyway, I'm in the process of reading A Game of Thrones and I just read Catelyn's chapter where Bronn defeats Ser Vardis to save Tyrion. Anyway, in your point #4 you say that Lord Frey is the only one to mention Stannis/Dragonstone as a location for Robert Arryn's fostering. However, in this chapter Maester Coleman also mentions Dragonstone. I'll try to type out the passage from the book.

"His lord father agreed with you," said a voice at her elbow. She turned to behold Maester Coleman, a cup of wine in his hand. "He was planning to send the boy to Dragonstone for fostering, you know..." (cut off rest of paragraph as it doesn't seem relevant)

"You are mistaken, Maester, " Catelyn said. "It was Casterly Rock, not Dragonstone, and those arrangements were made after the Hand's death, without my sister's consent."

The maester's head jerked so vigorously at the end of his absurdly long nexk that he looked half a puppet himself. "No, begging your forgiveness, my lady, but it was Lord Jon who--"

That's where it ends as they are rudely interrupted by a bell announcing the coming battle. There are a lot of rude interruptions that occur in these books just as Martin is about to give out some particularly juicy bit of information .

 

[Boaz]

Viz, Welcome! But confessing that Egg recruited you will only inflate his opinion of his own powers of persuasion.

Good find. I knew someone talked to Catelyn about it.

Wiggs, keyboard? You should see TK's pants after he reads that.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think its safe to say that I am not alone when I say "No one is interested in the goings-on inside TKs pants." Or outside for that matter.

I dont neccessarily suppose they were Starks Boaz that were dead dreamers. I actually think maybe Bran isnt unique but rather is unique at this fortunate time when magic has reawakened and the crow is around to help Bran. Those who came before were unassisted by the crow and went insane or retreated into themselves. Or maybe those are "psychic" corpses, leaving the deader incapable of opening the third eye after that...

And Viz....I know my intellect draws posters like moths to a flame. I get it. No need to advertise. Its embarrassing to me......and welcome. No one is allowed to call you an idiot til yer 18th post. Enjoy this time, youll never have that luxury again.

As for the rest of the children, I think theyre in touch with the wolves. Thats it. Whatever spark is in Bran that allows him other abilities isnt manifested in the others. I think whatever Jon/Robb/Arya have is from the wolves. Clearly theres something there, the first book is rife with anecdotes about there being an otherworldly connection between the two groups. The wolves provide an implacability in those children, a sense of self that withstands trials. I dont know what the cause is, but I think it just makes them more of themselves. I dont know how else to explain it....I think the wolves mirror the children (that much is obvious) and in turn provide a little of that mirroring back. Making Robb a more valiant leader of men...making Jon more noble and practical, making Arya more determined and resourceful.

Sansa is different obviously, but I think thats due to a little part of herself dying with Lady. I think the qualities that Lady provided (the sense of self, strength of will etc) is trying to come back to Sansa. Is it Lady? or some magical embodiment thereof? I dont know. Something or even someone is trying to cross the barrier and help Sansa just like the others. Part of the problem is Sansa has lost her way....so the "Starkiness" is unable to find her. As she matures back towards a Stark I think it will accelerate the process.


One other loose end....the Others powers are incapable of breaching the Wall right now right? Because of the wards placed on the wall...right? The wights that attempt to kill Mormont and the Lead Ranger (whose name escapes me) move with clarity of purpose inside the keep that I didnt think possible. I thought they were shambling corpses directed by the Others. But that would be interfered with by the Wall itself. So either the wights do possess some sort of malevolent intelligence or the Others can influence them within the Wall making those wards spoken of virtually useless.

 

[viZion]

And Viz....I know my intellect draws posters like moths to a flame. I get it. No need to advertise. Its embarrassing to me......and welcome. No one is allowed to call you an idiot til yer 18th post. Enjoy this time, youll never have that luxury again.

Actually, it was your glaring oversight in point #4 that got me to register. If that's what passes for intellect then maybe I should cease wondering why you're such a champion of Ned's . Btw, are you sure you want to wait until my 18th post?

 

[viZion]

I read over the part where Rickon got the 4 arrowheads yesterday. Could this be a case of Occam's Razor? Rickon literally asks for 4 arrowheads because he's 4 years old. So he gets 4 arrowheads. That could be all there is to it. Or maybe not, don't know.

 

[Boaz]

Egg, he's over eighteen now. Go get him. I like to egg on Egg.

Loose threads...

Bella the prostitute is one of Robert's bastards.

Gendry.

Edric Dayne.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Wha? Sorry bub....Im busy reading Shogun....no kidding.

 

[Boaz]

Egg, don't yank my chain like that... I'm not that gullible.

I can't believe you think I'd actually fall for that one.

Okay, what's the topic here? Loose threads... does this mean Brienne's rope is fraying?

Okay....

What ever happened to Dawn? It was Arthur Dayne's sword. Edric did not seem to have it... Seems like Howland will know this one as well.

Who is Darkstar and where has he gone?

Okay, Egg, I'm dying here... did Blackthorne get out of the pit yet? Did he meet Rodrigues? Did Yabu meet Toranaga? What do you think so far?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

What ever happened to Dawn? It was Arthur Dayne's sword. Edric did not seem to have it... Seems like Howland will know this one as well.

Who is Darkstar and where has he gone?

Okay, Egg, I'm dying here... did Blackthorne get out of the pit yet? Did he meet Rodrigues? Did Yabu meet Toranaga? What do you think so far?

Asked and answered Boaz...

Who Gets Dawn

May I direct the courts attention to your very own post of 2 September 2005 in which you deride the answer of the owner of the sword by virtue of having an unlikely sounding name. Really Boaz? You would take the time to deride someone for having a humorous name? What is a Boaz exactly? And may I also point out the "Tigger" avatar that is your public face? Hypocrite much?

To answer the other question....Im well past those points. Toranaga is attempting to make a deal with the Jesuit priest to bring the two Christian Daimyos in line with him and Blackthorne is on his way (rather obliquely) to Izu I believe to train some people with muskets and how to operate a large boat.

I actually dont like the third person narrative he jumps into. Its disconcerting...theres no transition between spoken and thinking words. But I do love the premise, setting and am rather fond of historical fiction in general.

Oh and Dawn is in possession of a man named Sir Wallace Chester of the Greenshield Chesters who married Alia Dayne....for those that dont wish to read the other thread.

Boaz....yer search-fu is lacking.

 

[The_Warrior]

I'm pretty new to the author and just started reading AGOT.

 

[TK-421]

The same advice we give all newbies: Stop reading this Forum now and spend that time reading the greatest fantasy series of all time. You are entering a new world, my friend.

 

[The_Warrior]

Will this forum be alot of soilers? I"m only on Eddwards first chapter. Where Ned and the king are together.

 

[TK-421]

Spoilers?????????????? This forum is loaded to the tits with spoilers.

Come back AFTER you've read AGOT, AKOC, ASOS and AFFC. Shouldn't take too long.

 

[The_Warrior]

Come back AFTER you've read AGOT, AKOC, ASOS and AFFC. Shouldn't take too long.[/quote]


lol