Queen Margaery and the moon tea ???

[MIDNIGHT]

Okay I know this topic has been beaten to death, however I could not find a thread to know whether or not this has been discussed. Here goes... in AFFCs Cersai demands Jaime to remain inside of the bed chamber that Tommen and Margaery are to share on the night of their wedding. Lady Olenna decides they should be together as man and wife (or at least warm each others bed). Jaime argues with Cersai that there can be no danger of consummation as Tommen is much to young. She replies that Ossifer Plumm was much to dead but that didn't stop him from fathering a child. Now we never do find out whether or not Jaime remained in that bedchamber, however we do know that the Lady Olenna is a bit of a troublemaker. Could she and Margaery be spreading tales of requiring moon tea to lead Cersai to demand the reason for requiring it, only to annouce that Margaery is pregnant with Tommens child( whether or not its his is trivial as they DID spend their wedding night together). I know...why would she require moon tea to rid herself of the Kings baby....I'm not saying she ever used it, its just a ploy to get Cersai out in the open. Lady Olenna is far to sharp by far, I'm just wondering why she insisted that Tommen and Margaery spend that 1 night together.

 

[Boaz]

Midnight, that's some interesting thinking there...

I think it's strange that Olenna and Marg would use moon tea to force the issue because moon tea would immediately call Marg's fidelity into question.

Mayhaps Marg and Olenna are trying to get Marg pregnant and claim the child as Tommen's. If Marg had a son, then the Tyrells could kill Tommen and move themselves into power equal to, if not greater than, the Lannisters. Remember, the Lannisters are trying the exact same ploy with Edmure Tully and mayhaps Robb Stark.

I don't know what the moon tea is for. Mayhaps Marg tried to employ Olenna's plan, but stupidly slept with a Kettleblack or some other black haired man. Any son of Marg must have brown hair or lighter to be considered as Tommen's... unless the Tyrells try and claim a recessive Baratheon gene.

Mayhaps Olenna's insistence upon the one night was to get it into Tommen's head that spending the night with Margaery is a good thing. If he makes a habit of it, then Marg will be ready when Tom's balls drop.

Mayhaps the whole thing is to make the Tyrells seem trustworthy and to lull the Lannisters into complacence.

 

[viZion]

Any son of Marg must have brown hair or lighter to be considered as Tommen's... unless the Tyrells try and claim a recessive Baratheon gene.

Now that would be funny. What do the Lannisters do knowing that there's no Baratheon blood in Tommen but unable to reveal that publicly? I would love to see that.

 

[MIDNIGHT]

I've considered a dark haired child as well, since that would but Cersai in such a pickle, however I just can't see Margaery screwing around like that . She seems to take after Olenna tooooo much. This is extremely far fetched, but I'm gonna say it anyways. What about Renly and a true Baratheon ? Renly (although he swung from the opposite side of the plate) was capable of producing an heir. Time line wouldn't make any sense though. WHY OH WHY would George throw in a 2 page discussion on whether or not Margaery and Tommen shared a bed ????????? Then add mystery as to Margaery using moon tea ? Cersai's motives for reveiling Margaery's drug use are purely to destroy her marriage to Tommen, yet she didn't start the rumor of moon tea. So who did and why ? Or perhaps Cersai is correct about Marg and Loras being a little like her and Jaime. Yet it makes no sense.....the Tyrells have there own Maester in Kings Landing why risk using Maester Pycelle unless you want it known ? Does Pycelle have any other known conections other than the Lannisters ?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Ive always been under the impression that Margy was schtooping Loras....

Cleary from Jaimes aunt's description of Renlys wedding night he was at least aroused by Margy....and we know Renly is of an "open-mind" when it comes to the bedchamber. So if Renly is of ambiguous sexual orientation then why cant Loras be as well....and we know according to Kettleblacks account the only one she is ever alone with is Loras.

That is one twisted love triangle....

I dont remember the thread originator...but there was an idea floated around that all plotlines seem to be used twice....this would complete the Jaime=Loras arc at least.

Also, if you reread Pycelles reveal about the moontea youll see that he was under some duress to name names....it could be he is just flatout fabricating things.

 

[TK-421]

Mayhaps Marg and Olenna are trying to get Marg pregnant and claim the child as Tommen's. If Marg had a son, then the Tyrells could kill Tommen and move themselves into power equal to, if not greater than, the Lannisters. Remember, the Lannisters are trying the exact same ploy with Edmure Tully and mayhaps Robb Stark.

What??!!?? Did I miss something or wasn't Tommen a 7-8 year old boy who liked to play with the seals on letters and decrees and whatnot. I mean, unless Westerosi boys get their pubes alot earlier than in real life, how could this even be considered a good plan. If this is indeed the plan, then the Tyrells planted thei brains in the rose patch and forgot to pick them back up.

 

[Charming Serpent]

I'm going to sideline any usual conspiracy babble just for the nonce on this post.


....... Maybe she's just a ho?

 

[Boaz]

In my AFFC American hardback, page 103, Cersei's first chapter, Martin writes...

...Queen Margaery, she reminded herself; Joff's widow and Tommen's wife-to-be. Margaery looked very like her brother, the Knight of Flowers. The queen wondered if they had other things in common. Our little rose has a good many ladies waiting attendance on her, night and day. They were with her now, almost a dozen of them...

The wording other things in common sounded like a thougt that either Tyrion or Jaime had in ASOS regarding Loras and Margaery's relationship. Because of Jaime and Cersei's relationship I tended to think of other things in common meant incest. But what if Cersei was not thinking incest, but homosexuality? Now re-read the above passage.

Might this explain Osney's failure to get Margaery alone and seduce her? But it does not explain the moon tea.

I'm always tempted to just dismiss whatever conclusion that Cersei reaches as wrong. She's not dumb, but her egotism and self-centeredness skews her perceptions horribly. Her instincts are correct, but her conclusions are all wrong.

I think it's interesting that Cersei ends the book with a female lover.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Another good observation, Boaz. If she is a lesbian then, like you said, what about the Moon Tea? She also, from what I remember, has requested it more than once from Pycelle? So, what's up with that? Is it for a number of her handmaidens who might be bisexual or perhaps her doing favors by keeping it discreet to hide shame from her straight ladies who might be doing things with members of the castle etc...??

 

[Boaz]

I don't know. I wish I did. It's another enigma.

I personally think that Margaery is exactly what she appears. A pretty girl with a good head on her shoulders and tutored by her grandmother to be a player, yet still just a girl who wants to be a fun loving teenager.

Edit: Okay, I found another possible reference or mayhaps just a red herring... Pages 347-8.

Read Cersei's and Osmund's conversation with Margaery as a lesbian in mind. I'll give you the highlights...

Cersei: I am running short of patience with dear Osney. He should have plucked the rose by now. Is the little queen blind to his charms?

Osmund: His charms is fine. He's a Kettleblack, ain't he? It's her that's the trouble... They are never alone. Two of her ladies share her bed...

Yes, it's extremely weak, but since Cersei seems to be leaving her first instincts and missing the target... well, it makes me like the idea.

 

[mercymydarling]

Is the moon tea ONLY for getting rid of royal mistakes? I was under the impression that it was used in general for... womanly problems, that time of the month, etc, though I guess not, hmm, if there was such an uproar over it. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING ANYMORE, I just, apparently, like to... watch myself... type? No one knows.

 

[Dream of Winter]

You know... that's the thought I had in my mind about Margaery, that she's a lesbian. Then again, I always had half a thought that she was simply too happy-go-lucky to be boy crazy.

 

[Boaz]

I'm just wondering why she insisted that Tommen and Margaery spend that 1 night together.

Rereading this comment by Midnight, I believe that Margaery could claim to have had intercourse with Tommen. Even though he's prepubescent, he can still get an erection. Anyway, claiming intercourse with Tommen could explain away Margaery's lack of virginity... if it ever came into question, which it has. I need to reread AFFC, but I believe this was Olenna's reason for insisting on the royal couple sharing their wedding night together.

 

[slik_rik]

I havn't read the above commetns so forgive me. Maybe she's covering for her handmaids / cousins (or other family members). Alternatively she could be ... shock horror...bi or lesbian. Bi means there's a justification to her and Renly and her and Loras AND Loras and Renly and lesbian means she might just be trying to look straight or appear to be a lil bit wild? Then again of she wnated that maybe it was to lure Cersei outta hiding?

Or maybe pycelle's spinning sh*t as he wants to get back into Lannister good books etc (he was the main informatn right?)

 

[mercymydarling]

Her being bi doesn't really explain her and Renly, as Renly was as queer as a three dollar bill. (My opinion, of course.) Though if Renly was bi, as well, I guess that does lead into some interesting threesome theories. Hmm.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

This is about the real ASOIAF, not its Japanese porno remake version.

 

[Ursa major]

You know... that's the thought I had in my mind about Margaery, that she's a lesbian.

That was also the impression I gained when reading the book. But I also wondered at the time whether it was the impression that Margaery wanted (whether guided or not) to give.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Really? I never thought that. Did this impression come from the fact that she is constantly surrounded by women? Or that she expresses no obvious interest in men?

The reason behind both of those appearances is that she has to pose as the perfectly pious, proprietary, and virginal young lady she is. She couldn't very well be seen chasing after handsome young knights, or even be shown to give them especial favors.

In fact, all of the *actual* (I say actual because obviously the fictions created by Cersei are completely irrelevant to the discussion at this stage) male attentions directed at Margaery's court are towards her ladies in waiting, providing an almost literal shield of reputation around Margaery herself. I think this is a very deliberate effect created by Olenna and Margaery. They are assuredly working together on every level and detail.

I think we've just seen the first layer of the onion as it were when it comes to the Queen of Thorns and her granddaughter.

 

[devilsgrin]

oh yes, tsw. i agree. Olenna is perhaps the most skilled player of the Game in Westeros. And Margaery is her star pupil.
The Queen of Thorns can be credited with making House Tyrell the single most powerful in all of Westeros. They currently hold the balance of power, emerged unscathed despite backing Aerys in Roberts Rebellion, They've supported three (and married Margaery to all three) kings so far, and have accumulated ever-more power in the trade-ups.
Olenna is quite critical of Mace's mental and politcal accumen, and its clear that he would do practically anything she advised him to do... not many people are capable of saying no their mother, when she has certainly raised them to always acquiesce to her will.
Margaery is a junior, but talented player, and no doubt is in on most of Olenna's plans - especially in her own role to play.
Both seem well aware that public opinion and provable fact are essential in manipulating the game. Hence Olenna's insistence on Tommen and Margaery sharing a bed on the night of their wedding.

I never thought of Margaery as being either a lesbian, bisexual or bi-curious even. Real World history does tell us that many high born ladies had their ladies in waiting share their rooms and even their beds, as surety of virginal integrity.
Cercei is a rather disturbed woman. Whether she was comparing her own bisexuality to Margaerys, or to Margaery's possible incestuous relationship with Loras (whose homosexuality is not just hinted at...but rather blatantly revealed in a couple of locations), has no bearing on Margaery's "reality".

I feel a little sorry that Sansa was unable to stay as part of Margaery's court, she could have received training in the game from a far more gifted source than Littlefinger... who whilst being a good player, isn't a woman, and therefore cannot teach Sansa of her feminine power and how to wield it as the power beside the throne (rather than Littlefingers power solely from the gold). As Olenna definitely could have done.

 

[Raven]

Cercei is a rather disturbed woman. Whether she was comparing her own bisexuality to Margaerys, or to Margaery's possible incestuous relationship with Loras (whose homosexuality is not just hinted at...but rather blatantly revealed in a couple of locations), has no bearing on Margaery's "reality".

Disturbed she may be, bisexual she is not. She has a single experiment with bisexuality, which she finds unfulfilling, and which is in any case more about power than sex.