Is there any fantasy with gunpowder?

[Tanegashima]

What I mean is, I'm really kinda tired of all the lame magic and swords and what not. I always feel that a good ol' real life pike and musket army could kick the ass of any lord of the rings army, Gustavus Adolphus would wipe the floor with those guys, magic or not (unbelievably geeky statement). But are there any fantasy novels where some faction has gunpowder in the form of firearms at all? I don't mean historical fiction either, but actual hard fantasy?

 

[ice.monkey]

The Warhammer world has a fair portion of gunpowder. The Empire in this world uses muskets and when I last looked (many years ago) dwarves had blunderbusses. Games Workshop have published their own novels set in that world but I haven't read any so couldn't tell you whether they're any good or not.

And the world I've been creating has gunpowder (haven't had a novel published though).

 

[GOLLUM]

I think you'll find that Paul Kearney's highly underrated Ships series (5 books) has that mixture. In fact it has a goodly mixture of fantasy, gunsmoke and horror.

Another series like that is Paul Marco's Tyrants and Kings trilogy. Some members have not enjoyed this series but I really liked it.

Seems to me you're after military fantasy but w/o the usual props. Both of these series fit that bill.

 

[iansales]

Pretty much anything described as New Weird is likely to include gunpowder.

 

[GOLLUM]

Never thought of it in that way before but I guess you have a point Ian.

 

[ice.monkey]

I always feel that a good ol' real life pike and musket army could kick the ass of any lord of the rings army, Gustavus Adolphus would wipe the floor with those guys, magic or not (unbelievably geeky statement).

The following quote comes from the 'Historical Note' at the back of Bernard Cornwell's Harlequin novel.

Benjamin Franklin, no fool, reckoned the American rebels would have won their war much more swiftly had they been practiced longbowmen and it is quite certain that a battalion of archers could have outshot and beaten, easily, a battalion of Wellington's veterans armed with smoothbore muskets.

Not that Bernard Cornwell can be viewed as the authority on the matter but I do know that he researches his novels well and having written about both archers and wellington's troops has had the opportunity to compare data and come to a conclusion. Probably accessed more information on it than you and I could.

So you may want to rethink your idea.

 

[stridersrule1]

hey Tanegashima ever read lord of the flies? please disregard what I just said sorry bout that eh.

 

[Tanegashima]

The following quote comes from the 'Historical Note' at the back of Bernard Cornwell's Harlequin novel.



Not that Bernard Cornwell can be viewed as the authority on the matter but I do know that he researches his novels well and having written about both archers and wellington's troops has had the opportunity to compare data and come to a conclusion. Probably accessed more information on it than you and I could.

So you may want to rethink your idea.

Lol! How many times I have had this debate. I shoot and work on blackpowder weapons and have done so most of my relatively short life. I own many muzzleloaders and have conducted several tests versus several different sorts of bows (Longbow of Yew (british) and a Japanese Yumi (asymmetrical longbow) we compared them with a British Caliver (17th Century Matchlock and a Tanegashima (A Japanese Matchlock)
Both firearms were consistently more accurate at over 150 yards than either bow. I might also add that one needs maybe a year of training to be proficient with these firearms, while to be proficient with a bow, one needs a lifetime. These were smoothbore weapons I might add, a Pennsylvania or Jaeger rifle (which colonial militiamen were often armed with) are far more accurate, a Pennsylvania rifle is easily accurate at 350 yards in the right hands and there isn't a bow on earth that can compare. But this, of course, is a debate that will never ever end because both sides end up having plenty of evidence to say blackpowder guns were useless, but my response to that is if bows and arrows were so much better, then why did armies with more and or better guns often crush their enemies that shunned them? I cite specifically Oda Nobunaga and his fight against the buddhists, he used guns and butchered them, so much so that the monks ended up using guns...but this is all for another forum, I am all too passionate and probably talk too much...

 

[Falsteed]

Both firearms were consistently more accurate at over 150 yards than either bow. These were smoothbore weapons I might add, a Pennsylvania or Jaeger rifle (which colonial militiamen were often armed with) are far more accurate, a Pennsylvania rifle is easily accurate at 350 yards in the right hands and there isn't a bow on earth that can compare.

Could just google your statements into the exaggerations they are. South Park retelling how the Book of Mormon came to be comes to mind. Read some historical fiction, Shogun by James Clavell is great.

 

[Tanegashima]

Could just google your statements into the exaggerations they are. South Park retelling how the Book of Mormon came to be comes to mind. Read some historical fiction, Shogun by James Clavell is great.

You really should just try shooting these weapons, its really not that amazing or astounding getting accurate results

as I said, this is a debate that will never end, plenty will get angry and its best not to even have brought it up...but I stand by my blackpowder.

 

[ice.monkey]

Believe it or not, Tanegashima, I'm not going to argue against anything you've said. But consider this:

Firearms brought about the demise of armour which would make arrows and bolts more effective. With firearms only the front few ranks can fire. With bows multiple ranks can send a rain of arrows onto the enemy. Practiced longbowmen could fire 12+ rounds a minute. Wellington's troops managed 3 a minute.

I'm not talking about the effectiveness of the individual weapons themselves with a single shot versus some form of armour. A tightly packed, unarmoured block of pikemen and musketeers would be arrow fodder to a mass of practiced longbowmen - as long as they're within range, obviously.

 

[Tanegashima]

True enough,

anywho, I take full responsibility for taking the thread off topic...my own thread too...but thanks for the suggestions so far everybody

 

[Falsteed]

...but I stand by my blackpowder.

Do not stand by your comment on Oda Nobunaga, he was dead before guns were introduced to Japan. Go read Shogun, you will like it I'm sure. The reason they proved so effective was because of the way in which they were employed.

 

[Tanegashima]

Do not stand by your comment on Oda Nobunaga, he was dead before guns were introduced to Japan. Go read Shogun, you will like it I'm sure. The reason they proved so effective was because of the way in which they were employed.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry but I cant, I cant...dead before guns introduced in Japan?

Okay, Oda Nobunaga June 23, 1534-June 21-1583 The Portuguese introduced the first snapping/locked matchlock in Japan in 1543, so Nobunaga was alive for 40 years, the absolute height of firearms in Japan. Not to mention that Oda Nobunaga used firearms to overwhelmingly defeat Takeda Katsuyori at Nagashino in 1576. So, despite my pleas to stop, I must must stand by this (all in good humor of course).


But yes, I have read Shogun, awesome book!

 

[Falsteed]

I guess you got me; to assume is to be an ass. So sorry.

 

[Quokka]

Still very much fantasy so maybe not the realism you'd be after but The Magic of Recluse series (L.E. Modesitt) is a good read where the magic is order vs chaos and the good (order) magicians use their magic to reinforce technology like steam engines etc. Each main character basically becomes a tradesman in addition to a magician and I'm fairly sure (read them awhile ago now) one in particular became a metal worker that helped to develop uses for black powder and other military weapons.

I havent finished the series to date as later on the books switched to being told from the chaos side and that kind of lost me but I really should as like I said I found them to be a fairly enjoyable read.

Edit: If anyone can jump in with whether or not gunpowder plays a significant role or not feel free, like I said its been awhile .

 

[Werthead]

The best fantasy author to use gunpowder is Paul Kearney in his series, The Monarchies of God, which starts with Hawkwood's Voyage. Awesome stuff. It is also present, to a lesser degree, in his Sea-Beggars series (which starts with The Mark of Ran).

 

[GOLLUM]

The best fantasy author to use gunpowder is Paul Kearney in his series, The Monarchies of God, which starts with Hawkwood's Voyage. Awesome stuff. It is also present, to a lesser degree, in his Sea-Beggars series (which starts with The Mark of Ran).

Hey I said that already Copycat....

Still he's right, Kearney rocks big time!!!.....

 

[Rane Longfox]

Couldn't see this mentioned anywhere, but try Naomi Novik

 

[Max the Mediocre]

I disagree with Wert. The best fantasy author to use gunpowder is China Mieville, in his Bas Lag books (start with Perdido Street Station).

Besides, you want to hold off on The Monarchies of God until the omnibus--with the heavily revised fifth book--is released next year.