Is Jon Lord Commader & King of the North

[Scurveydog77]

Didn't Rob (believing that Bran & Ricken were dead) make Jon his heir in SoS, just before he when to the Red Wedding? His mother tried to talk him out of it, but he refused. I don't have the book with me, but didn't he have the Greatjon and the others sign it? Did anyone else catch this?

 

[viZion]

I believe he was discussing it but then Catelyn leaves (or he makes her leave) the room before we see the actual signing of the document.

 

[Boaz]

It is assumed that Robb did something before putting himself in Walder's hands.

 

[Scurveydog77]

At the end of that chapter Rob says, "I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran & Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I've thought long and hard about who will follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witness to my decision."

I know that Jon is not named at that time, but that was Rob's decision when he was talking with Catelyn. So is Jon now the King of the North?

 

[Culhwch]

Only one man can tell you that....

 

[viZion]

No, he's the King of the North That His Brother Lost. On the bright side, as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch he can bequeath the New Gift to himself and style himself as King of the New Gift That Isn't Populated and No One Cares About Anyway.

 

[Lubbock]

YUp but as King of the North, he will quickly become a target for all kiinds of Assasination attempts, slander and worse ridicule, even if he sticks to his vows as nightwatch he is still a symbol for those who want the north back to the Starks, but once they realise Rickon and Brann is alive, Jon can return to his happy life at the sunny and exotic wall.

 

[pan naranus]

no

Not possible, sorry, it's the same bloody choice all over again (third time to my cont but it might be forth or fifth). Can't be lord commander and a king. Lord commander is first of all a sworn brother of the night watch. He can have no wife castle or land. If Jon is to become a king than he is no longer a brother.
I think he chose the black for good, and there is that little problem called Stannis Baratheon to consider...

 

[Boaz]

Right. Stannis has offered Jon Winterfell and Jon has refused. Stannis will suffer no rebellions, i.e. Jon continuing to proclaim the North as an independent kingdom. Also, Robb was an attainted outlaw by the Iron Throne so any legal decisions by him (Jon's legitimacy and Jon's claim to kingship over the North) are null and void in the Crown's eyes. Furthermore, anyone claiming Robb's word as law would be declaring him/herself an outlaw before the Iron Throne.

 

[Koopa]

Besides that, you cant actively occupy two positions of power.
For exemple, when Robert became King, he made Renly Lord of Storm's End.

 

[Boaz]

I think you can have as many titles and thrones as you are strong enough to hold on to. Robert also made Renly his Master of Ships in addition to being Lord of Loras'... err, I mean Lord of Storm's End.

Jaime is currently the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and the Warden of the East. After Tywin's death and Kevan's retirement, he is the de facto commander-in-chief of Tommen's armies. He could have added Hand of the King to his list as well.

And while I'm on the topic of Jaime, positions of power, and whisperings in Loras' ear... Jaime, in his second chapter of AFFC mentions to Loras that the most important of the Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard and the man Jaime wants to emulate is Criston Cole the Kingmaker. Criston Cole went against King Viserys I wishes to make his daughter Rhaenyra Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Upon Viserys' death, Cole raised Viserys' son Aegon up to be Aegon II. The Dance of the Dragons is the name of the civil war that ultimately claimed the lives of Rhaenyra and Cole while placing Aegon II securely on the throne.

Does Jaime realize this? Is he stating that he's ready to war against Myrcella to keep Tomen on the throne? Mayhaps this will be called The Lap Dance of the Lions. Sorry, I could not find any synonyms starting with L. But if the movers and shakers are Cersei and Arianne, then I think this Lap Dance will be well worth watching.

 

[Koopa]

Okay, you have a point, but i think mine still holds. When it comes to lands, you can i think only be lord of one thing. For instance Robert could no longer be lord of Storm's End since he now got the Kings land under his control.

As for offices and the political power that comes with them is offcourse a different story.

 

[Boaz]

Of course you're right, Kiwi. I was just being argumentative so I can slip in Renly jokes.

 

[Charming Serpent]

Boaz, you crack me up with those jokes. Umm, as to Jon, I dont know if that letter from Robb went anywhere, but even Jon wouldnt do it if it did.

But, once again you make a good point of discussion: Why did Jaime show Loras the page about Cole? I had overlooked the relevance of that as purely just a comment about nothing, but looking closer I believe your on to something. Though I do disagree about Myrcella and Tommen. It could be about Dany (though i highly doubt that) or maybe a Tyrell? Who knows, but once again, I am terribly vexed.

 

[Lubbock]

I think one point thats being missed is, JOn dosnt know he has been made a Stark, neither does anyone other than those rotting in Frey prison, if this is leaked that he is KIng of the North it will give someone for The Umbers, Flints and so on to rally behind, so if Jon wants the job or not i think it will be forced on him, and he has already proven that he is changing the Nightwatchj ways, at least while good ol´ Stannis is at the wall.
But yes if JOn is given the choice he will stay at the wall but JOns dreams have always been to be named a Stark and be able to sit at the family table instead of the childrens table down back near the dogs.

 

[Koopa]

1) Robb is a rebel lord, so if the Iron Throne pulls through, most of his decrees will be nullified

2) While a king may proclaim that he is his heir, special arrangements still needed to be made, cause of the fact that when you join the NW, you leave behind your former ties.

3) Jon has proclaimed his vows, and he aint gonna (truly) break them. Especially after the whole Stannis bit. Wether Jon is proclaimed king in the north by Robb seems to me irrelevant regardless at the moment.

 

[Scurveydog77]

You make a good point, but why would Martin put it in the book? He offers it in two different scenes. It could be that Rob changed his mind and made someone else his heir, they never mention Jon's name when they put their seals to the document.

Also, keep in mind that the Lord Commander of the Night Watch already has lands and castles. Castle Black, The Gift, The new Gift, Queens Castle, etc.

And not all those who signed the document are dead or captured. Rob sent some of them to search out Howland Reed. They never went to the Red Wedding. One of them was the Lady Mormont. She'll know the name of Rob's heir.

 

[johnnylump]

Has it been definitively ruled out that Robb didn't knock up his wife?

 

[Scurveydog77]

Yes, Her mother confirmed to Jaime that she was not with child. She hinted that it was "taken care of", per the instructions of Jaime's father, Lord Tywin

I remember a scene in ASoS where Queen Jeyne told Catelyn that her mother was giving her something to drink to help her conceive. My guess is it was really moon tea.

 

[Boaz]

Scurvey, Lumpy, and CS, I welcome you all to the Chronicles Network. We love your questions and ideas. I'm gonna throw out some of facts and ideas that have been tossed around here before... let me remind you that you do not have to like these ideas or accept previous hypotheses as facts. By all means, we would all love for anyone to come up with better hypotheses or find clues that no one else has found.

Brynden Tully, aka The Blackfish, was Robb's leading battle commander and his castellan at Riverrun. Robb did not have a Hand, but Brynden did a lot of a Hand's work even if he never had the title. If anyone knows what Robb decided regarding the inheritance of the North and if anyone has the determination to see Robb's will done, it is The Blackfish. In addition to Jon and Sansa, Robb's blood relatives included Brynden and Edmure. Don't forget that Jaime failed to capture Brynden... he's on the loose.

Regarding Jeyne Stark nee Westerling... In ASOS, Catelyn noted that Jeyne's hips looked ample for birthing. In AFFC, Jaime noted that Jeyne seemed slim of waist. Did Jeyne hit a growth spurt? Or did her mother try to fool Jaime with a stand in?

Edit: My apologies, I had to run out for a few minutes.

Mayhaps Lady Sybelle is still playing both sides... I'd certainly like to think Robb has an heir of his body.