Why say Tyrion's a Targ?

[DeannaBelle]

Whose theory was this? Why do you believe this?

 

[Lubbock]

Well i got this theory there are so many clues hidden around that he was special and not a Lannister, ill just post a few of them, there are more than this but with company christmas party hangovers me brain is not computing.

Its Tyrion and The Red Viper talking

Red Viper "It was when i visited Casterly Rock with my mother, her consort, and my sister Elia. I was, oh, fourteen, fifthteen, thereabouts, Elia was a year older. Your brother and sister were eight or nine, as i recall and you had just been born,"
Tyrion "A Queer time to come visiting."His mother had died giving him birth, so the Martells would have found the Rock deep in Mourning.....

So why would the Martells come to visit at the worst possible time, there was bad blood yet between the families. So perheps Tyrion was special.

They even describe a omen that said that Tyrion´s birth would bring Famine, plague and war, and winter and the long that night that never ends and the Viper adds, ohh and the fall of your father.

So as we all know some of these things have already come true and could Tyrion be a ******* son og Taegaryen dynasty

Jon is chatting with Ygritte.
Page 599 in A Storm of Swords :Steel and Snow

Jon Snow "No he Thought, The Wall protects the realm. From the others.....and from you and your kind as well. Sweetling.
Ygritte "I had another friend of mine who dreamed of Dragons. A Dwarf. he told me....."

This is just a few, im sure Boaz will fill in the blanks.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Who do people propose Tywin's wife, what's-her-name (Johanna?), was sleeping with?

 

[Charming Serpent]

If Tyrion turns out to be a Targaryen I will gag, swear, possible vomiting and organize a book burning fire in my backyard.

 

[JDP]

I dislike the Tyrion = Targ theory.

Firstly, I think it's way more likely that Jon is a Targ (R+L=J). This seems to me to be set up way better; if Tyrion is a closet Targ too, that seems a bit too much of the same thing. I know, I know, the dragon has three heads, blah, blah, blah... Tyrion = Targ would be weak.

Also, I think the Tywin/Tyrion friction was a brilliant storyline; IMO it's infinitely more powerful if Tyrion really is Tywin's son.

 

[TK-421]

I let Boaz defend this theory that has some things going for it.

But, Tywin, Jaime and Tyrion himself all know that he is too much of a Lannister to be anything else.

 

[Koopa]

because besides hot pie being aegon, it is nothing short of the latest fab. anyone who is not on board get boo'ed and is called a nerd. (among nerds)

 

[DeannaBelle]

Yes, I agree on the brilliancy of Tywin/Tyrion.

Some people mentioned Tyrion being illegitamate, so I though I'd hear their cases. However, to read that in the book would be no fun.

 

[Boaz]

Relax. I'm here.

I don't think I'm the first to offer the idea that Tyrion is a Targaryen. But I might be the first to attempt to show how this may be. My hypothesis is...

Aerys, the Mad King, and Tywin, his Hand, seemed to have had a contentious relationship. Tywin clearly showed for twenty years that he was the most capable man in the realm, while Aerys revealed his cruelty and jealousy over Tywin's abilities. Once, when Tywin was off on the King's business, Aerys took Joanna to bed. Willing or unwilling, it does not matter. We know Aerys raped his own Queen/sister. Joanna never spoke of this to Tywin because she knew about the Reynes, the Castameres, and Tywin's father's mistress. She knew that Tywin would not stand for his honor to be besmirched nor stand for his wife to be raped. But alone, House Lannister was no match for the Iron Throne... and Joanna would hate to bring about the destruction of her own house and the murders of her husband, son, and daughter.

Mayhaps, she tried to cleanse herself with moontea. But we know that Tyrion is hard to kill. Mayhaps the moontea malformed his body. Mayhaps Joanna would have smothered Tyrion in his crib and no one would have been wiser. Regardless, Joanna died in childbirth.

Tyrion's hair is so blond, it's almost white... like a Targaryen's would be. Tyrion's eyes are mismatched... one green (like Cersei's) and one black. Arianne notes that Darkstar's eyes appear black, but they're really purple. Maybe Tyrion's other eye is like that.

Tyrion has a fascination with dragons. Tyrion saved KL by using fire... the named champion of Aerys. Aemon called Tyrion "a giant among us." Tywin constantly refered to Jaime as "my son." Tywin refused to give Casterly Rock to Tyrion... if Tywin had any knowledge of anyone besides himself being Tyrion's father, he'd have had Tyrion killed out of hand... no pun intended.

When Aerys refused to marry Rhaegar to Cersei, he called Tywin his servant.

Tyrion told Jon that "all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

Rumors circulated amongst the small folk of KL that Tyrion planned to assume the Kingship.

Tyrion liked sitting on the throne.

If Tyrion is not really Cerse's brother, but half-*******-brother, can he still be the valonqar? Tyrion's Targaryen heritage lends believability to Jaime's role as valonqar.

The last and best evidence for Tyrion to be Aery's ******* is that I want him to be a Targaryen.

So ultimately, there's not a shred of proof. I'm just trying to see how this could happen.

By the way, Kiwi's right. We defenders of irrational and unsubstantiated proposals tend to be fairly obstinate and vociferous.

 

[Tysha]

Aerys, the Mad King, and Tywin, his Hand, seemed to have had a contentious relationship. Once, when Tywin was off on the King's business, Aerys took Joanna to bed. Joanna never spoke of this to Tywin because she knew about the Reynes, the Castameres, and Tywin's father's mistress.
And that how the twins came to this world. Someone (some lady) said that Tyrion is much more Tywin's son than Jaime, and we can see that too. Jaime and Cersei are hot tempered as a dragons and have that Targaryen madness to (incest, throwing children from a tower and Cersei is quite mad, don't you agree)..
Well Boaz, I'm learning from the best

 

[Boaz]

Tysha, you stole my thunder! The same thought occurred to me while rereading Jaime's conversations with his aunt Genna. I've been trying to find other references for this, but as of yet to no avail.

Sooooooo.....

What if Jaime and Cersei are Targaryen bastards and Tyrion is Tywin's only true born son?

Jaime and Cersei have the incestuous desire of some (if not all) Targaryens.

Cersei is acting more and more like Viserys and Aerys with each passing day.

Tyrion's becoming a kinslayer would only be helping him to catch up with Jaime... who slew his own father, Aerys.

This one needs more time to cook...

 

[viZion]

I firmly believe that every character in the series is a Targaryen *******.

 

[Tysha]

"Tyrion's becoming a kinslayer would only be helping him to catch up with Jaime... who slew his own father, Aerys."
GOOD ONE BOAZ!
Aerys wanted Jaime on his Kingsguard.. to keep him close... hmm
And there was this Harrenhal incident - where Aerys is sending Jaime back to Kings Landing.. I didn't quite undersood what happened. Maybe it's somehow related to our crazy theory

 

[viZion]

Aerys wanted Jaime on his Kingsguard.. to keep him close... hmm

Wasn't it Cersei who got Jaime his Kinsguard position? I always got the impression that Aerys couldn't have cared less about Jaime until Cersei did whatever she did to make Aerys take notice. At that point he thought it was a pretty neat idea to screw over Lord Tywin by taking away Jaime. I could have it wrong though.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Haha,so they inhereted some incestuous gene? There's a good one!

 

[Boaz]

Cersei did indeed do her utmost to get Jaime to the Kingsguard. Jaime always thought it was so that they could be together... maybe that's true. But Aerys quickly saw it as a chance to deprive Tywin of his prized heir... this is the real reason why Tywin stepped down as Hand. Mayhaps Aerys also saw it as a chance to put his own son, Tyrion, in control of House Lannister... i.e. breeding out the real Lannister bloodline.

Now as to Cersei's motivations, at the time of Jaime's appointment, Rhaegar was married to Elia while Cersei was unmarried. What if Cersei got Jaime into the Kingsguard so that she could inherit Casterly Rock?

Think about this.

Joanna was dead. Tywin was not remarrying.

Of Tywin's three children, Jaime would have been disallowed from inheriting as a Kingsguard. Cersei would have married some great lord, but maybe she'd get out of it... or get her sons to inherit from her and her husband. And finally, Cersei knew when Tyrion was born that Tywin loathed him. At nine years of age, would she have openly abused Trion if she was not sure that Tywin, whom she and everyone feared, hated him also? Cersei knew by age eighteen what Tyrion did not know by twenty-four... Tywin was never, never, never going to let Tyrion inherit.

The only problem with Cersei arranging her inheritance of Jaime's birthright is that it means that Cersei was planning years, maybe decades down the road. In none of her chapters in AFFC has she shown any propensity for plotting beyond the moment.

One quick question for viZion and DeannaBelle... Do you guys know each other? You both are from Oregon. You both joined last month. I think you two may be some part of a conspiracy.

 

[viZion]

One quick question for viZion and DeannaBelle... Do you guys know each other? You both are from Oregon. You both joined last month. I think you two may be some part of a conspiracy.

Heh, I also thought it was interesting coincidence. But no, we don't know each other.

As to the rest of your post, I think the key to that whole thing is your observation that in order for all of that to happen Cersei had to be planning years in the future. That's just not her thing. She's a pretty terrible leader.

 

[devilsgrin]

she may be a terrible leader, but she was always cunning... thats a Lann the Quick trait which all Lannister's seem to have.
It was only once she became Queen Regent that she became stupid... and that can be blamed on power going to her head.
Whatever we may say about Cercei, one thing she is not is Stupid. Occasional lapses in higher brain functions caused by excessive alcohol consumption, certainly. Blind with power, yes. Mad, increasingly so. Surprisingly naive, even. But out-right stupid - she may do some stupid things, but being blinded my power and going somewhat batty are certainly factors in these instances.
I don't find it at all hard to believe that she was basically getting Jaime out of the way by having him knighted to the Kingsguard.

 

[viZion]

I don't find it at all hard to believe that she was basically getting Jaime out of the way by having him knighted to the Kingsguard.

I do. I really think Cersei and Jaime were trying to get together when Cersei had Jaime put on the King's guard. The plan simply backfired when Lord Tywin decided to take off over it. I don't remember anything in Cersei's POVs that indicate she was trying to get rid of Jaime back then. GRRM is pretty good at not hiding his character's thoughts and feelings over their past actions when they are the POV. If she were trying to get rid of Jaime back then then you'd think it would have come up somewhere in her POVs. For example, when she decides to get rid of Jaime in AFFC she could have said to herself, "I need to get rid of Jaime again like I did when I put him on the Kingsguard." Instead these are her exact thoughts from the book:

I need to rid myself of him, and soon. Once upon a time she had dreamt that the two of them might rule the Seven Kingdoms side by side, but Jaime had become more hindrance than a help.

That quote alone seems to suggest that she wanted them to be together. She's only now thinking to get rid of him since he's stopped allowing himself to be controlled by her.

 

[Boaz]

GRRM is pretty good at not hiding his character's thoughts and feelings over their past actions when they are the POV.

This is why Eddard had to die. Martin could not go on with Eddard's POVs and not spill the beans on Lyanna, Jon, Rhaegar, Aegon, Benjen, and maybe more. This is the reason we don't get Aemon, Littlefinger, and Varys POVs... they know too much.