Matter: What did you think?

[Lord Soth]

[Maybe SPOILER hints]

My personal opinion ofcourse!

Well, just finished it and I wasnt too impressed really. Far too much pseudo fantasy in a sci-fi novel, took far too long to get moving and it really didnt seem to become a Culture novel until the last quarter.

I didnt really care about the characters and the ending seemed rushed. Also the combat (I know its not really a 'fighting' sci-fi novel) was confusing and over too quickly. For me, very below par. I think he needs to spend more time writing the story than describing the universe.

So, what did you guys think?

 

[easygoingman]

Hi
I haven't finished it yet so my comments are concerning the first 140 pages and it seems a 100% sci fi novel to me. Clearly a culture novel with masses of imagination and action + plot. Instantly recognisable is Iain's sci fi: the quality of prose and descriptions, the humour and intelligence is all there. It's moving at an excellent pace so far but with about 400 pages to go there's a long journey ahead. I'm loving it

 

[easygoingman]

I finished reading Iain M Bank's Matter for the first time on Saturday afternoon. I told myself I would not read anything else over the weekend as nothing would satisfy as much. I was right; whatever else I tried seemed dull and lazy by comparison. It's a highly exciting, spectacular story and set in the familiar Culture Universe that the majority of his Science Fiction is set in. There are new species introduced and so no Idirans or aliens such as the Affront from previous novels. Part of the story takes place on the 8th Level of Surasmen, due to the society shown depicted there: guns. flying beasts, steam driven vehicles and the recent introduction of the telegraph and politcally a fedual one it may appear non science fiction. But considering this world is set underground on a huge Shellworld containing different levels of life created billions of years ago and much of the book takes place elsewhere; on starships and alien habitats for example. It's as Science fiction as science fiction gets. There are multiple characters, masses of imagination and it flowed like melted chococlate over my tongue.

When it ended I didn't want it to end, I wanted there to be more, really I did, Whereas many books I want them to finish quickly.

This is Iain's 11th work of published Science Fiction and 23rd work of fiction overall. 'Matter' is his 8th novel set in the Culture Universe of the AI/pan human Anarchy/Communist Civilisation of abundant wealth, possibility of immortality and ultra intelligent spacecraft and more closer to human intelligence drones. The drama does not take place on a Culture world though memories of experiencing life in the Culture are included (sex change, drugs, many games etc)

Djan Anaplian with a drone called Turminder Xuss is a Special Circumstances operative (The Culture's Intelligence and Intervention Side) is shown manipulating sides in a war in the prologue. Then the action jumps to where much of it takes place: on a very complex world with a war between humans but with many aliens on other parts of the world. It's beautifully detailed, full of energy, there are nasty moments and a sense of fun as well. There are set pieces, a quality of description few writers match. Prince Ferbin and his servant Choubris Holse are two other important characters, Djan is his sister who joined the Culture in the past. Multiple alien species are involved in this world and curious about it. It has the energy and action of his first published sci fi novel Consider Phelbas and is clearly from a writer far from exhausted of ideas. Although part of the action takes place at a fantasy WWII level of technology only with flying creatures big enough to carry a man, this is clearly a 100% Science Fiction story and one that bounds with optimism including in a way the ending.
I'd spoil the book too easy by saying much more.

Am I a fan of Iain's novels? In a way yes but there are more than a handful of his I would never read again. So a critical fan yes. This is one well worth reading again. A highly enjoyable, action and intrigue packed luscious story full of wonderful descriptions. There is a feeling that there are many more stories to tell in this universe.

 

[Lord Soth]

Well as long as you enjoyed it then... personally I think his older works were more to my taste. Although you mentioned lots of alien races due to the technological background I felt they could almost be 'swapped out' for any 'monster' race in standard fantasy.

I personally wanted to see much more of Djan Anaplian and Turminder Xuss, I really couldnt bring myself to care that much about the central characters. I'm almost to tjhe conclusion that I think Bank's work (and this will sound illogical to what I have just written) too future tech for its own good, and almost too many things are too easy because of it. The action (I mean by 'traditional' sci-fi fighting) - what there is, is too sparse, over too fast and feels rushed. I much prefer the work of Hamilton or Asher nowadays (though yes they have their faults too ofc).

I would question your point of 'highly exciting' though - my lack of fondness with the main characters sort of precluded that for me. I wholeheartedly agree with your last point however, in that 'there are many more stories to tell in this universe.'

/me goes and starts Brass Man by Asher now...

 

[easygoingman]

Yes I enjoyed it, it's a shame you didn't.

I love 'Player of Games', the novellette 'State of the Art' and 'Use of Weapons' most of all from his earlier sci fi. It's too early to tell after one reading how many times I would return to Matter but I'll definitely re read it this year.

I assume that the many alien species in this weren't gone into in lots of detail was to focus on the story telling but would agree with that.

I would agree that for big long advanced descriptions of battles then Peter Hamilton does that (and more) very well


on the question of 'highly exciting'; Iain Bank's novels invariably give me the sense of 'I don't know what happens next and I really want to find out'. It's impossible to state all of the highly exciting moments without spoiling it all; This sense of 'highly exciting' includes being written in language that is excellent and original, constructed with imaginative descriptions and characters I am concerned or curious about. The structure of Iain's narrative means there's always both a sense of mystery about what is going on, why, and working out how important are these characters and events? Together with Iain's sense of humour which gives some of the characters and situations great ironic or funny moments makes it both highly exciting, readable and enjoyable.

I tried reading 'Brassman' by Neil Asher last year and failed. The prose was average, the characters tiresome, there's no one to care about that I remember and was humourless. It lacked that 'must read the next part' addiction. However 'The Skinner' by himwas much better, full of strange ideas and excitement

 

[Rane Longfox]

Well, Brass Man relies quite heavily on having read the previous books that lead up to it... going straight into it wouldn't be a particularly good idea.

 

[iansales]

Finished Matter yesterday. Is it better than The Algebraist? Yes. Is it as good as Excession or Use of Weapons? No. I enjoyed it, but I thought it was very talky - most of the characters seemed to have trouble shutting up. And all the alien races - I don't remember so many from earlier Culture novels, but that may be my memory - often made it seem more Brin than Banks...

 

[Lord Soth]

I need re re-read his earlier works, problem being is that they are in my loft in boxes behind boxes behind boxes...

One day I'll get to them

 

[iansales]

I thought this.

 

[easygoingman]

I thought this.

Plot spoiler alert on the link....



All I'll say about the issue of intervention by another culture; there is no easy answer to it either in real life or in the works of Iain M Banks.
Look to Winward shows the terrible effects of an intervention by the good guys of the Culture. Consider Phelbas shows the impact of the horrific imperialist aim of the Iridians. Player of Games via the Drone speaks out against large scale intervention but not against one or two manipulating.

I took it that as the galaxy is so enormous that's why some of the creatures and the Shellworlds hadn't been mentioned before.

 

[iansales]

But Banks famously chopped up his passport and sent it to Downing Street in protest over the invasion of Iraq. Clearly, he personally does not believe developed nations have a right to interfere in other nations. If Dead Air was his response to 911, then Matter could be seen as his response to Iraq, except... he seems to be saying interference is acceptable under certain circumstances - and that's not just from the actual plot of Matter (including epilogue), but is also reiterated in Djan Seriy's conversation with a member of Peace Faction. I'm not saying everything should be black & white in the novel - if I wanted that, I'd read high fantasy - but I'm not sure Banks' position on the, er, matter is clear enough from the book.

 

[Rane Longfox]

Well, pretty much every Culture book is about Special Circumstances or Contact interfering with other civilisations. Doesn't always end well though

Incedentally, I'm about 260 pages through Matter at the moment, and really enjoying it.


ian - clearly you've been reading the wrong high fantasy (which is the vast majority of it, to be fair...)

 

[Rane Longfox]

Anyway, I just finished it, and here are my initial thoughts:

While vastly superior to the dissapointing "Algebraist", this latest from Banks seems to hark back to his previous war-torn Culture novels ("Use of Weapons" springs to mind) without quite managing to find the excellent level those previous books rose to. While the whole Shellworld idea was entertaining, it also struck a few discordant notes, and the ending was overall fairly dissapointing - both rushed and unsatisfactory. Not up to what I would normally expect from such an excellent author. On the plus side however, the characters were as entertaining as ever, and the usual spatter of eccentric Ship Minds and bizarre cultural details kept the book entertaining, if not exactly gripping.

 

[gully_foyle]

Still reading it, so I won't contribute to the discussion just yet.

However, I was wondering what your opinion was on this. Is the humanoid on the cover walking towards us, or away?

 

[Rane Longfox]

Well, I had thought away, but looking at it more closely, there is possibly a fringe of hair, as well as the edges of the cloak, so it could be towards... bizarre.

 

[gully_foyle]

The shoes suggest towards and there are no footprints.

 

[gully_foyle]

Finally finished.

Not Iain's best by a long shot. Yes the characters were too talky. Yes the conclusion was rushed to. Yes the combat was over too quickly, or rather too much was going on in too short a description. I also felt there were a few borrowed elements in here. Djan Anaplian is too similar to other previous SC agents and had no personality. The Iln seemed to be like an Outside Complex Problem. It was still a good read, but the WOW factor wasn't there.

I don't understand why people don't like The Algebraist. Maybe I love it because it was my first Banks novel and I had no cultural baggage. If Banks did another book like that I would be happy.

 

[Durandal]

I don't understand why people don't like The Algebraist.

I was wondering about that myself. It's actually the only Banks I've read, and I loved it. The Culture novels are incredibly difficult to find in the US, so I started with The Algebraist, as it was easy to obtain. I adored it, and subsequently lugged the entire Culture series back home from a trip to the UK. They're sitting on my "to-read" pile, with a ton of other stuff.

Anyway, I hate to divert this thread from the "Matter" at hand, but I'd love to hear why people dislike The Algebraist. Is it just not as good as the other ones, or is there something more specifically wrong with it?

 

[Green]

For me, the Algebraist was lacking in the main thing that makes his Culture novels great: AI. I know there was some towards the end, but really they were pretty much absent from the book. In my opinion, Banks' machines are far more interesting than his humans, and The Algebraist suffered as a consequence.

It was too packed with his bright ideas, and he left out most of the plot. Like Matter, it also ended abruptly and the main protagonists (tyl Loesp recently, and the Archimandrite (I think) in The Algebraist) were rendered pretty much pointless and pathetic by vastly superior technology, making me feel like I'd wasted my time with them.

Banks has done the OCP (outside context problem) one too many times with Matter, and while I find them very interesting and fun from a super-science kind of angle, I think this Iln box basically rendered 500 pages of the book a waste of time.

 

[iansales]

I didn't like the villain in The Algebraist - he was too much of a pantomime villain. And his narrative thread didn't end very well. I also found the Dwellers unconvincing - but then Banks has always been poor at aliens - even the ones in Matter aren't done that well. And finally, the plot shifted into what felt like an entirely different novel towards the end.

However, Banks off form is still better than most other sf writers, so The Algebraist was disappointing chiefly in relation to his other sf novels.