Rank and Title in Elenium / Tamuli

white_wanderer

white_wanderer

Auditor of Reality
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I was thinking the other day of all the knights that go off with sparhawk in search of a cure for the queen. These are all noblemen, but of what rank?

In Domes of Fire, They are introduced to the Emperor and their titles given, but one is missing (sort of).

The ranks, in order, are:

Sparhawk (Prince)
Tynian (Duke)
Berit (Marquis)
Ulath (Earl)
Bevier (Viscount)
Kalten (Baronet - interestingly Kalten's title is granted by the crown and is a lowly one, not rating the title of Lord)

So the question is, what rank was Sparhawk before he married? Can anyone remember reading this - a friend of mine states that he read it somewhere in the first book of the Elenium, but I can't find it. Can anyone else help?
 
I think Sparhawk was always the King's/Queen's Champion - like his father before him - and I always thought that that was a title in itself. Other than that, I'm not sure. I think a reread is in order.

Good question, White Wanderer.:)
 
That is a great question. I don't think it's mentioned what title his family held, the Champion would have just been an additional title along with Preceptor (or Acting Preceptor as I'm sure he'd correct me) and Prince Consort. The hereditary title of his family is vague and only the Ruby Knight makes mention (in the prologue) to Sparhawk's family history. And the only say that the first Sparhawk was a young acolyte.
 
If his father was indeed a duke, then Sparhawk would be one too. The titles of noble rank seem to be hereditary in Edding's world. In fact, I think it was Stragen who mentions this when he's introduced as a Baron and he explains that with his father and half-brothers dead the title went to him.

I'm curious though, with the Tamuli series killing off the Thalesian king/prince consort Avin would Ulath be eligible for the throne? He's an earl and isn't that like the highest rank below king/prince?
 
That's a good point, too. I'm not sure which is the next highest rank below king or prince, but Ulath is pretty high on the list of Thalesian nobility. He'd certainly be up for consideration, I would have thought, especially given his actions in the campaign against Cyrgon/Klael.
 
No, the next in order of precedence would be a Duke, then Earl/Count (different names for the same thing. Both would be married to a countess).Technically a Grand Duke would rank next to a Prince, but this tends to be a courtesy title given to those of royal blood.
 
Ah.... so there could be one in line ahead of him for the throne, if there was a Duke ahead of him then?
 
Ah, yeah, didn't consider that fact.

Though, did Ulath refer to Wargun as his kinsman or king in Ruby Knight?
 
I'm not sure. Mind you, the true King is the one who gets crowned. If Ulath were to seize the vacant crown and hang onto it.........
 
My original post has the list of ranks, in order from price downwards. Eddings seems to have used UK Peerage ranks for his nobility. Earl is middle of the road.
 
having said that though, in Arendia for instance, it seems that Barons outrank Counts... Count Reldegen (Lelldorin's uncle) is supposedly from a lesser branch of the Wildantor family.
Earl may be middle of the road in Britain, but in Cherek for instance, there are no references to anything other than King/Prince, Earl, Baron and Lord.
Not all of Eddings' countries appear to have peerage rankings in the same order.

In Elenia, i would assume the peerage follow the British rules... but the other kingdoms appear to differ slightly. there are mentions of quite a few marquises in Arcium, but almost none in Elenia save only Berit. I think the way Eddings has differenciated his kingdoms is by changing the peerage line-ups, not only their positioning. With titles absent from some countries and others prevalent.

I know you only listed the 'introduced' party members, but just so others know where Baron fits... its above Lord and below Viscount. Though all titles below Marquis generally are addressed, as 'my lord' with Marquis and Duke warranting a 'your grace.'

Kalten was an orphan, it doesn't mention anywhere who his parents were. its entirely possible that he was a peasant, or untitled aristocrat, but since only the nobility could enter into the Knightly orders (at that time... Kurik's sons seem to break this rule wide open), Sparhawk's father must have arranged for a title to allow his son's best friend to also be a Pandion.
 
Okay, this is what I recall of Eosia, the Thalesians had strict rules on Nobility and who could become a knoght. which is why a number of the Genedian Knights were awarded titles, and knighted at points where Wargun was three sheets to the wind (maybe four all things considered). The Alcione, and Cyrinic knights did really get discussed, except in everybody being unanimous in telling Sparhawk to Knight Kurik. this led me to believe that the Pandions did knight titleless applicants based upon skills instead of birth.

Sparhawk and His family were landholders (mentioned when Sparhawk was discussing how Kurik and his family would be taken care of... mainly that he'd likely have to sell off a number of acres...) but not sure if there was a major title to it. he seemed to be content as Pandion Knight, and hereditary Champion of Royal house (king or Queen depending). Irecall him fighting tooth and nail to avoid MORE titles (and responsibilities) than he felt he had shoulders for.

Ulath called King (fill in name here) his kinsman, when talking to his ghost, don't know if he called wargun kinsman or not. Unfortunately for the thalesians, the nobility is a pyramid, more than line. (though lines are followed in succesion and inheritence) but there are a number of Dukes, Earls, Counts etc... besides Ulath. so there would have to be a rather intense bloodbath for Ulath to end up being the next king of Thalesia..... too bad Zelazny is no longer around. could have been interesting for him to describe that number of royal accidents to occur to give Ulath that kind of chance.

the person who was sealed inside a barrel and sent off in the Tamuli WAS the new King of Thalesia, but since none of his subjects could stomach him.... he was removed in favor of someone ....... ANYone.... better.
 
as far as i was ever able to tell, all Pandions were also nobles. You must remember that Kurik was utterly, uttlerly opposed to being knighted, saying he was a commoner and knights lost all their brains with their 'Sir' titles.
It was only Kurik and his sons that were considered for Pandion knighthood due to Kurik's exemplary service - a Squirehood which was as much hereditary as Sparhawk's to the Elenian Throne - and therefore just as noble if not titled as such. Squire Kurik sounds almost noble...
 
You know, I really can't see Ulath as a king. In fact, I think if anyone tried to ram the crown on his head, he would run the other way so fast no one would ever catch up with him. That's if he didn't take it as an insult and take his axe to him. It would be wildly out of character for him to try to become king.
 
I would consider Kurik as a "man at arms" not a servant/although he professed the later more so than the former.'08.
 
Kurik is the Squire of Sir Sparhawk. A Squire's duties tended to include much of what a man-servant or valet might do... attending to the needs of their lord... most particular in this case, with respect to the care and maintenance of Sparhawks arms, armour and horse. They were also considerably skills warriors in their own right. As in Kurik's case, where he is referred to by almost every veteran Pandion as the best teacher in the Order, his own skill at arms is significant.
Technically while a Squire IS a servant, they are also something between peasant and noble and generally hold at least nominal rank, usually as the voice of their Lord Knight.
 
Sparhawk was a Prince Consort/Pandion Precepter/Anahka at the same time.Talk about multi-tasking.'08.
 
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