Jeroam
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2005
- Messages
- 52
Hello everyone. It's been a little more than 2 years since I've posted a crackpot theory, and I hope you find it worth the wait. It's going to be a long crazy rant so get your popcorn ready and settle in. I want to start by thanking everybody who's posted on the other Melisandre threads over the last few weeks. You've all got me thinking about this red lady and I couldn't have come up with this idea without you guys. This forum rocks, love you all.
Who is Melisandre and where did she come from?
I have come to imagine Asshai of the Shadow as a quasi Oriental culture, which lies at the edge of the known world as far South and East of Westeros as possible. It's shrouded in mystery and rumor, but those rumors consistently describe a place where dragons may still live, and the magi there are powerful sorcerors who use obsidian and amber bending shadow and fire to their will. There have been a number of posts lately discussing Melisandre's magic as being more shadow than fire. But the thing that strikes me the most about Mel's magi ways, is that the only other place of mystery and rumor that developed and controlled great magical power over shadow and fire is Old Valyria.
The Valyrians were said to shape stone not with chisels, but with fire and magic. Valyrian steele was forged using magic spells. The maesters say that magic disapeared when the doom came to Valyria. The maesters also have a glass candle still used in maester training exercises that is crafted from obsidian. Samwell stumbles upon the use of obsidian to combat Others, but Melisandre had Stannis carry as much of it with him as he could when they went to the wall. How did she know that? Melisandre has also been hounding Stannis for a human sacrifice to hatch dragon eggs. Valyrian magic, like the religous traditions of R'hllor, use flame, shadow, obsidian, blood, and the big one, dragonlore.
Thoros attributes his newly discovered resurrection power to a spiritual awakening, he mentions nothing about dragons. To my memory the only other characters in Westeros who suspect that dragons can be, and maybe have been hatched, are the pyromancers.
While Melisandre and Thoros are both supposedly from Asshai, they share no physical characteristics. The description of Thoros is very much in keeping with a Far Eastern setting, but Melisandre has almost the exact opposite physical traits.
I've been reading and enjoying Martin's work, as I'm sure have you, for years now, but there's always been one glaring implausibility about the Westerosi world that I just couldn't quite dismiss. I don't believe that the Targaryen were the only people to have survived the Doom of Valyria. I've envisioned the doom to be a massive volcanic Krakatoa-esque eruption which left the capitol and most of the heart of empire a smoldering ruin. The Targaryen were on Dragonstone, a tiny island with barely enough resources to survive, the farthest Western outpost on the edge of the empire. It had to be equivalent to manning a radar station in Alaska. These people, the Targaryen, must have been a minor house at the bottom of the totem pole to get that assignment. The most powerful houses probably went up in smoke with Valyria, but what about Ghiscari and the other cities of Slavers Bay who we know were vassals of Valyria? What about Qarth? What about small tiny Dragonstone like outposts on the far Eastern, Southern, or Northern edge of the empire?
I submit to you that just as Daenerys is a descendant of one of the last noble houses of Old Valyria from the Western edge of its empire, that Melisandre is in fact a descendant of one of the last noble houses of Old Valyria from its Eastern edge. Asshai was a far more sophisticated and culturally developed land than Westeros was at the time of the doom. Given the rumors and snippets that we have been given about Asshai, doesn't it make sense that the knowledge of Valarian magic and dragonlore would have had a much better chance of surviving and being passed down there than anywhere else? If other noble houses of Valyria survived the doom, wouldn't they have gone there? Of all the characters we've encountered so far, Melisandre possesses the greatest magical ability, and an extensive knowledge of dragonlore. She showed up at Dragonstone just when magic was returning to the world and has been searching for a way to hatch dragon eggs. She has been using Stannis to position herself as close as possible to the Ice vs. Fire conflict because she knows that eventually, if there are dragons, they will be drawn there and she will use her magic abilities in an attempt to wrest control of them.
Melisandre is trying to fulfill a prophecy, but it's not the Stannis and his fire sword prophecy, it's the prince who was promised prophecy that we've been lead to believe is about Daenerys. The prince who was promised prophecy isn't really about bringing back dragons, it's really about the power necessary to found a second Valyrian Empire.
I told you this was a long crazy rant. So far, I've been appealing to your reason. Now let me appeal to your emotion. Did you ever, from the first moment that Stannis and Melisandre were introduced as characters, ever doubt that Melisandre was there for her own secret reasons and ambitions? Did you ever, even for a moment, doubt that when and if that moment came Melisandre would not hesitate to slit Stannis's throat to get what she really wants? That's what I thought.
Who is Melisandre and where did she come from?
I have come to imagine Asshai of the Shadow as a quasi Oriental culture, which lies at the edge of the known world as far South and East of Westeros as possible. It's shrouded in mystery and rumor, but those rumors consistently describe a place where dragons may still live, and the magi there are powerful sorcerors who use obsidian and amber bending shadow and fire to their will. There have been a number of posts lately discussing Melisandre's magic as being more shadow than fire. But the thing that strikes me the most about Mel's magi ways, is that the only other place of mystery and rumor that developed and controlled great magical power over shadow and fire is Old Valyria.
The Valyrians were said to shape stone not with chisels, but with fire and magic. Valyrian steele was forged using magic spells. The maesters say that magic disapeared when the doom came to Valyria. The maesters also have a glass candle still used in maester training exercises that is crafted from obsidian. Samwell stumbles upon the use of obsidian to combat Others, but Melisandre had Stannis carry as much of it with him as he could when they went to the wall. How did she know that? Melisandre has also been hounding Stannis for a human sacrifice to hatch dragon eggs. Valyrian magic, like the religous traditions of R'hllor, use flame, shadow, obsidian, blood, and the big one, dragonlore.
Thoros attributes his newly discovered resurrection power to a spiritual awakening, he mentions nothing about dragons. To my memory the only other characters in Westeros who suspect that dragons can be, and maybe have been hatched, are the pyromancers.
While Melisandre and Thoros are both supposedly from Asshai, they share no physical characteristics. The description of Thoros is very much in keeping with a Far Eastern setting, but Melisandre has almost the exact opposite physical traits.
I've been reading and enjoying Martin's work, as I'm sure have you, for years now, but there's always been one glaring implausibility about the Westerosi world that I just couldn't quite dismiss. I don't believe that the Targaryen were the only people to have survived the Doom of Valyria. I've envisioned the doom to be a massive volcanic Krakatoa-esque eruption which left the capitol and most of the heart of empire a smoldering ruin. The Targaryen were on Dragonstone, a tiny island with barely enough resources to survive, the farthest Western outpost on the edge of the empire. It had to be equivalent to manning a radar station in Alaska. These people, the Targaryen, must have been a minor house at the bottom of the totem pole to get that assignment. The most powerful houses probably went up in smoke with Valyria, but what about Ghiscari and the other cities of Slavers Bay who we know were vassals of Valyria? What about Qarth? What about small tiny Dragonstone like outposts on the far Eastern, Southern, or Northern edge of the empire?
I submit to you that just as Daenerys is a descendant of one of the last noble houses of Old Valyria from the Western edge of its empire, that Melisandre is in fact a descendant of one of the last noble houses of Old Valyria from its Eastern edge. Asshai was a far more sophisticated and culturally developed land than Westeros was at the time of the doom. Given the rumors and snippets that we have been given about Asshai, doesn't it make sense that the knowledge of Valarian magic and dragonlore would have had a much better chance of surviving and being passed down there than anywhere else? If other noble houses of Valyria survived the doom, wouldn't they have gone there? Of all the characters we've encountered so far, Melisandre possesses the greatest magical ability, and an extensive knowledge of dragonlore. She showed up at Dragonstone just when magic was returning to the world and has been searching for a way to hatch dragon eggs. She has been using Stannis to position herself as close as possible to the Ice vs. Fire conflict because she knows that eventually, if there are dragons, they will be drawn there and she will use her magic abilities in an attempt to wrest control of them.
Melisandre is trying to fulfill a prophecy, but it's not the Stannis and his fire sword prophecy, it's the prince who was promised prophecy that we've been lead to believe is about Daenerys. The prince who was promised prophecy isn't really about bringing back dragons, it's really about the power necessary to found a second Valyrian Empire.
I told you this was a long crazy rant. So far, I've been appealing to your reason. Now let me appeal to your emotion. Did you ever, from the first moment that Stannis and Melisandre were introduced as characters, ever doubt that Melisandre was there for her own secret reasons and ambitions? Did you ever, even for a moment, doubt that when and if that moment came Melisandre would not hesitate to slit Stannis's throat to get what she really wants? That's what I thought.
