Outstanding issues for the next series

Aldebaranian

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So.. Although the darkwar series suffers from a number of problems as many has pointed out, like inconsistencies, too short books, faulty character development etc, it still provides a good romp. And it did gather together a number of story strands to a fairly satisfying conclusion.


But it got me thinking about where we would be taken next. Reading over the series there are a few things that I feel have been left dangling. One is the story in the last book at the Peaks of the Quor. This strand is totally unrelated to much of the rest of the book so I can only explain it by being a taster for the future. Likewise there was in one of the Serpentwar books a mention of a people that handle magic in solid form and who seem to be involved with the creation of the "organic" rifts there. And finally the Dread, why are they there?

So my list of what to look out for is:

- Will the Quor be attacked? Are they from a reality level above that of Midkemia?
- Who was the magician & what was the conjured creature at the coast of Peaks of the Quor? Were they planning to attack the elves (didn't seem very promising if so :)
- What creates the "organic" rifts we heard about in the Serpentwar saga, are they related to the Dread? [since the Dread are "lifeforms" living in the void]
- What about these creatures that move solid magic - who are they and what is their role?
- Why did the Dreadlord go through Realm 2nd, 3rd & 4th circle of Hell but not the Fifth circle of Hell (Demons)? Does this mean that Nalar had a hand in setting the Dark God of the Dasati on his throne?


Any other unresolved issues that you think will matter in the future?
 
These questions are all questions I would love to know the answers too as well! I'll have to think of some issues myself, can't off the top of my head
 
Firstly, welcome to the forums! The Feistiples are a small but dedicated crew, so, relax, challenge and enjoy!

In one of the 'Krondor' books (Betrayal methinks) there is mention of a wold where magic has taken a solid (crystalised) form which can then be used as a reserve of power, i.e. not the personal power that Nakor seemed to speak of so much. Thus an indifferent magician could obtain great strength via such crystals. Maybe there is a race which could manipulate this in some way or perhaps there will be something completely different for us!

I thought the Dread once inhabited the smae universe as te Valheru but the Valheru defeated them and drove them away. They are basically the enemy of every living thing and I cannae remember what 'level' of reality they hail from. The Valheru could defeat them but considered them dangerous foes. I think only the Dasati defeated the Valheru and they could not destroy the Aal, but, did appear to break them.

Can't remember anything about the rifts in the Serpentwar saga, were they the ones made by demons?

Otherwise I also have some thinking to do, some freat points brought up there! Thankee.

Woody.
 
[spoilers below]

Thank you for the welcome Woodsman, appreciated. I have browsed here once in a while but had a break from reading Feist books for a couple of years so never felt like contributing before :)

Thanks for the pointer to Betrayal, I'll check it one of these days - there is, I think, some reference in one of the Serpentwar books (Rage of the Demon King, I seem to recall) that Pug has had dealings with these people before. That is probably the right reference - definitely will check that out.

That is also where he makes some mention of the rifts being "organic" and IIRC Pug or Marcos makes a statement that they were not made by the Demons (somebody put them there for them). It is a bit unclear - I only started spotting these issues when re-reading the Serpentwar.

As for the Dread - there is quite a bit of detail in the Mad God, Tomas refer to them as being of the void which is outside of all the circles of hell & heaven so I don't think they inhabited the valheru world. In fact, I just dug up this which Tomas referred to:
"Of all the foes the Valheru faced, mightiest of them all were the Dread. We invaded their realm and many of the Valheru fell. We returned, keeping them at bay, and told ourselves how mighty we were"
and then later in the meeting he says: "Tomas had told them the tale of the Valheru's first and only encounter with the Dread, in a realm called 'the Boundary' by the Dragon Lords. It was a place between the realms and the Void and, like the Hall of Worlds, the City Forever and the Garden, a place that defied rational description"

In some book, probably in the Serpentwar saga again, there is also a comment made that well-behaved demons are allowed into Honest John, but that the dread are the only beings not allowed it so they must be pretty bad..

So I think there will be plenty to come from that side and certainly not something to look forward to, but it sounds that even Nalar wouldn't want the Dread to really invade Midkemia..

Plenty to look forward to I hope! Just wish Feist'll do a more careful job with the next series!
 
Too true, as much as I love Feist and read his books through rose coloured glasses to see Kulgan referred to as Fugan is a little hard to swallow. A print error I know but someone should have picked it up.
 
Didn't Pug travel to a dying world at some point in order to rescue someone? and on said world there was no magic per-say except for in a crystalised form and had something to do with totems? It may well have been one of the Krondor books as Woodsman said.

With regards to the Dread the way i've read them is this,
As far as I know no-one has ever destroyed a Dreadlord, Pug and thomas trapped one but didn't destroy it. Thomas remembered in WoaMG that the Valheru encountered the Dread at the edge of reality(?) and after losing a few of thier number they decided to retreat, which in thier eyes was a victory of sorts.

I too think that the next book will feature heavily around an attack on the beings (forgot thier name) who are protected by the Quor, why else waste half a book introducing them.

Will we get to read more about the Talnoy? I was all up for a great battle between the Talnoy and the Dasati and was a bit gutted the way things got to where they ended.

I think the dread didn't come through the demon realm as they are somehow closely linked?

Is this the last we hear of the Tsurranni peoples who left kelewan through the rifts, I know some ended up in Midkemia but what about the others?

Mmmm who knows, thats my little rant over, for now ;).
 
It appears that Nixie is correct! and Feist has screwed up a little again. Tomas states in ADaS that he conquered dreadlords and that they came from a far off universe at the limits of space and time &c. The creatures absorbe the life essence of any living thing they touch, killing most beings instantly, hence John is not too keen on them!!

Thinking about it, I believe the race mentioned in Betrayal were creatures of the Alma Lodaka (eeek sp?) and so they could well have created the rifts in conjuction with the Saaur? Otherwise those priests of Asshart (IIRC) also created some rifts so....

Nalar is mad isn't he?

Glad you've decided to contribute at any rate. I got into this forum becuase of Feist but there's plenty of other great sections to browse through! Enjoy.

Woody.

Oooops NJ most of what I said is somewhat obselete.

Oi thought the great golden dragon (name?) killed a dreadlord in ADaS?

By-the-by great rant....
 
I'm sure John would let in a Dreadlord or two; The Inn's in a different form of reality to the other planes so the Dreadlords couldn't absorb their life eccenses. Plus the 'Wampa' like beasts would take them out seeing as they are 'stronger by the pound than any other beast' and 'immune to most poisons'.

As for the 'organic' rifts, I would say Ban'ath has been sticking his hands into things again :D
 
First post :D

I strongly believe that the Quor/sven ga ri and the Dread will provide the focus for the next series. But i think the following question about the darkwar saga needs exploring first.

Why did the nameless one need to kill the Dreadlord? If the dreadlord invaded the 1st plane of reality then surely the nameless one could have used the spark it had planted inside Leso Varen to control the dreadlord? Surely the nameless one would want the dreadlord to carry out all that destruction... being the god of evil after all.

possible answers or implications

i) The dread are as alien to a god's influence as they are to life in all the various planes. Meaning that the Dread even pose a threat to the gods. Or, the dreadlord is simply too powerful for the nameless one to influence, even with the small spark of itself it had planted in Leso Varen which was on its way to the Dreadlord.

ii) Allowing the Dread to wipe out the planes of reality, represents a dire threat to the gods. It is made explicit that the god's existence is in some ways symbiotic with the sentient life that worships it. By wiping out all sentient life, the gods would cease to ''exist'' in the sense that there would be no use for them. With the god's losing their power, the nameless one would be able to escape from its prison... which would spell disaster for the remaining god's since the natural balancer for the nameless one, Arch-Indar, the goddess of good was ''dead'' or ''inert'' for want of better term.

Which leads us back to the question - why did the nameless one want to kill the dreadlord? If the above ii) is true, then allowing the dreadlord to invade the 1st plane of reality would have benefitted the nameless one in its thirst for dominance.

Now this is where my next thoughts become incredibly complicated... so bear with me.

Ok, now, keep in mind the various comments made throughout the books about the underlying battle between good and evil. But more important, the statement that evil cannot exist without good, and good has no meaning without evil.

This helps us understand what happened to the dreadlord and why, because the nameless one would not benefit at all from being completely dominant over the other gods... as much as its behaviour would suggest it might desire such a thing... the simple fact of the matter is, is that the nameless one is just as confined by its own nature as all other beings/entities... which is why Banath takes pains to remind Pug of the parable of the scorpion and the frog. By the nameless ones very nature, it will act in a way to overcome good, because that is its nature... mad... evil. But it is limited in this activity by the very nature of the conflict between good and evil... they would not exist without the other. The nameless one cannot help but act as it does because of its nature... and if something happens that might upset its nature then it will act to prevent that something from happening. In this case, its the dreadlord's invasion of the 1st plane of reality.

To sum up, although at a superficial level, you might think that the nameless one would benefit from the extinction of sentient life that is so vital for the other gods powers... at the deeper level... the nameless one would also cease to have any meaning as the god of evil if the other gods were to lose their meaning... their existence is interdependant. Although the nameless one is imprisoned and has a very small influence, good is not dominant because the goddess of good is ''dead'' along with the god of balance (ishap) who must have been responsible for acting as the god who prevented either the goddess of good or evil from becoming too powerful over the other. With these three extremely important gods ''dead'' or otherwise inactive, the underlying forces of order and chaos are the dominant ones... which explains why the overarching conflict is called the ''chaos wars'' the continual interplay between law (Pug and the conclave) and chaos (Leso Varen).

This suggests a level of coordination between the god of evil and the goddess of good and the god of balance, an act of coordination that is more an act borne out of necessity more than anything. The goddess of good by her very nature would not want the dreadlord to visit death and destruction on innocent sentient life. The god of evil, limited by its dependance on the existence of good, must also prevent the dreadlord from such an invasion. The god of balance's voice is the one that has the last say...

This is where Banath comes into play, because he alone is able to orchestrate the necessary pawns to achieve the plan made by the god of balance, he is the god of hopeless quests (but is it as hopeless as you think?). Banath by his very nature, breaks the rules, and is therefore the only one capable of doing things that the other gods cannot... since they are all bound by their designated roles. But another reason why Banath reminds Pug of the parable concerning the inevitability of ones nature, is that although his task is to carry out the task of coordinating the balancing act as defined by the god of balance... he may go about it in very circuitious ways. Banath is also in charge of the mantle of the god of knowledge until the true god of knowledge returns... he seems ideally suited to the task of coordinating balance in the stead of Ishap, giving Nakor a unique insight into the true nature of the universe and magic.

In keeping with that coordination, the nameless one had given up part of itself to be used as a weapon to kill the grossly superpowered dreadlord. It probably didnt understand why it was doing this... at the superficial level it looked like all the death an destruction caused by Leso Varen was the real objective... but it was all some ploy to allow the gods to maneuvre the godkiller weapon to get unnoticed and close enough to the dreadlord. IE. allowing the dreadlord to create the vast rift between the 2nd and 1st planes... and making it drunk with power so that it did not notice the weapon that was designed for its destruction entering the rift. Nakor was planted by Banath on the behalf of the other gods to wield the godkiller as a weapon in its pure form and not let the dreadlord simply devour it along with everything else that was falling through the massive rift. I am making the assumption that in order for the spark of the nameless one to become the godkiller weapon it had to be removed from Leso Varen. If that wasnt necessary, then nakors role wouldnt have been necessary. That nakor was so perfectly suited to confrontating Leso Varen and dealing with him in quick fashion, leads me to believe that his act of extracting the spark of the nameless one from Leso Varen was planned and necessary.

So what now?

I believe the entire point of these wars is the continual reminder that the current order as maintained by the active gods, is probably not a permanent one. The ''dead'' gods are doing their best to do the jobs defined by their nature, just by indirect means because of their lack of influence. Good is being done by priests etc, balance is being maintained by Banath and his involvement in the various wars, evil is being done by the agents of the nameless one. The dead gods are doing their best to come back to life... and they are all probably doing so at an equal pace and perhaps that is necessary due to the nature of balance. Alot of evil has just been accomplished with the death of millions of Tsurani and Dasati and countless other beings. Alot of good had been done too... with the salvation of various races who lived on Kelewan on a new planet, the banishment of a dreadlord back to the void, and the return of the gods to the Dasati realm (who are the same gods in the midkemia realm but who had just lost their influence in the 2nd plane due to the invasion of the dreadlord and the erosion of the dasati culture that gave them 'life' and meaning). Work in the name of the god of good and evil has been done, and the attempts to balance those works is work done in the name of the god of balance.

I think we might be reaching a point in time where the revival of the ''dead'' gods is finally coming to fruition or at least making some headway.

What will this mean for the books?

The Quor and sven ga ri and the apparent crack in reality that links the realm of the dread with midkemia will probably be the focus of the next series. Pug and Tomas will probably venture out to discover where the crack is located and maybe even travel through the crack into the realm of the dread... and we will learn more about the sven ga ri and their link to the heart of Midkemia and wat role they have. There is very little information about that particular arc of the story so i can only guess at their true nature and meaning. But i do think its safe to say that the crack in reality that gives the dread access to midkemia will need to be sealed... it would probably be too easy to seal it from the midkemian side so we might see a journey into the dread realm, if thats even possible.

speculation of the sven ga ri:

If the dread are anethma to all life in the universe, i can only assume that the sven ga ri are their opposite... being linked to life itself. If we remind ourselves of the fundamental nature of balance... it would follow that the dread would demand an opposing force, otherwise they would represent an imbalance in an otherwise balanced equation. For whatever reason that caused the crack in reality to give the dread access to midkemia from their realm... the sven ga ri must have appeared to help counter their incursions. Once the crack in reality is sealed the sven ga ri could return to wherever they originated from. The sealing of the crack and the continued resetting of the original balance that existed before the chaos wars may be an act of 'good' that heralds the final stages of the return of the goddess of good.

If the goddess of good sees a revival the need for the nameless one's imprisonment would be gone... since the goddess of good would only have real meaning if the god of evil was also active and no longer imprisoned. His existence is necessary to balance hers. Ishap, the god of balance would therefore see revival because he would be required to exert a much stronger influence to maintain a balance than what was required when the two opposing gods were ''dead'' or imprisoned.

We might see the books take shift away from the actions of mortals to the actions of the gods as they reassert themselves into the universe. We might see the gods making more direct communications with their mortal champions to do important work for them...

This might lead to another conflict with the Valheru... who are still imprisoned by the lifestone. The returning gods may wish to vanquish the valheru once and for all in order to ensure their continued dominance. Or they may even require their destruction in order to safely return. The valheru possess power that is almost equal to the gods... which is definately something that they would want to get rid of even if they are banished... they need to be destroyed.

Tomas would have a pivotal role in this... being the one valheru who opposed his race's apparent madness. Pug would naturally be his ally... we might see them both find out how to enter the lifestone an defeat the valheru in the realm of their imprisonment. Magnus's role is shrouded in suggestion... suggestion that is implied in Feists constant reminder that he might one day eclipse both Miranda and Pug in power.

Whoever is involved... I think we will see the gods resetting the balance that existed before the war with the valheru...

Once the gods reassert that balance i think the need for their pawns will be gone... Pug would therefore be freed from his responsibility and be allowed to finally pass to his next life or finally become the god of ''magic'' or maybe that is Magnus's destiny. Tomas would probably become human again and allow the soul and essence of ashen-shugar to finally be at rest since his duty to protect midkemia for the gods would be no longer needed with their true return.

I dont think the end of the series will end with good overcomes evil type ending... more that the events that transpired as a result of the chaos wars will be reversed... giving the fate of the universe firmly back into the hands of the gods.

How does this relate to Nakors theory that the universe is in fact one entity that is simply learning or dreaming?

Perhaps the 'Universe' with a capital 'U' is the umbrella entity that the gods, mortals, demons, etc are part of. The creation of the valheru was an experiment or maybe just a fun game started by the Universe, who wanted to see what would happen if balance was disturbed. It wanted to learn how to adapt. Or perhaps by challenging itself it would learn about itself more than it would if things were in perfect balance all of the time. Disrupting its own balance was the Universe's way of expressing its desire for self awareness... perhaps it has learnt that no matter what happens to the system it contains balance will always exist... just achieved by different means and actors. Perhaps it has learnt that it can relax and allow the system to regulate itself since it seems stable and adaptable enough to survive even major shake ups.

Why would the Universe care about learning this? I dont know, the problem is, even Nakor's attempt to anthropologise the Universe as a learning infant is doomed to failure as a point of perspective and understanding, simply because the ant will never comprehend the dragon who sits at the top of the mountain.

The end :cool:

sorry that was rather a long first post!
 
Welcome Keeper of the lore, good to see you about!

Great post and yeah well I probably need to re-read it and the books befpre I comment any further.

I thought the lifestone had been destroyed?

Is Nalar actually a god of evil, or, the god of madness? surely the two would be different. In that; evil is madness but madness not always evil. Also wondering if Nalar was always mad or did he become mad?

Dayum, nice thoughts.

Cheers, Woody.
 
Hi woodsman thanks for the comments,

Ah yeh I forgot the Lifestone was unravelled by Calis in RoaDK... so the Valheru can no longer use it to escape from their banishment. But perhaps this doesnt mean that the Valheru are stuck wherever they are forever... if the nameless one gains more influence or finds another dupe to act on his behalf perhaps another way of getting the valheru could be found. I guess the point im trying to make is that if the greater gods do return they will probably want to tie up all of their loose ends and end the Valheru threat once and for all (assuming i can think like that do lol)... they should certainly be coordinated and aware enough to defeat them now since during the chaos wars the Valheru's threat to the gods was predicated on the fact that the new gods were not very coordinated and involved in their own infighting.

With regards to Nalar...it is said that he went mad, which suggests he wasnt mad before just evil. He was judged to have gone mad because he put into motion events that transpired to result in his banishment as opposed to his dominance. The question is asked, what can cause a god to go mad? I personally dont think he went mad... i think he was doing exactly what he should have done. He used the valheru as a weapon to carry out his constant battle against the goddess of good and the other gods. That makes sense. By upsetting the balance between himself and the other gods the nameless one forced an unequal equation... which had to right itself somehow because of the underlying nature of balance and the relationship between good and evil. In order for the sudden destruction of the gods who acted as the natural inhibitor of the god of evil... the god of evil himself had to be banished until their return. I dont think he is mad for doing this to himself... because i dont think he knew this would happen, he had no awareness that his banishment would result from the death of the goddess of good and the god of balance... he just does what he is meant to do... evil... he cannot do anything else. I guess when i described him as the mad god i was being pretty inaccurate. To someone with more awareness about the overall balance of things, he is mad... but he is only aware of his own nature and how to carry out that nature. The scorpion who kills the frog as the frog swims them both across the river cannot help killing the frog because that is its nature... to us the scorpion is mad. But the scorpion was only doing what its nature demanded it to do even if it results in both their deaths. The ''mad'' god is not really mad in the sense that he is doing exactly what you would expect him to do... evil. In fact, he would be falling short of his nature if he had not used the valheru as a weapon against his opposing gods. I think everything he has done has been perfectly in line with his own nature. His actions resulted in the ''death'' of the goddess of good. Unfortunately, without the good, evil has no meaning... but he has no concept of this relationship... he just is what he is and nothing more.

Lorekeeper
 
'Mad' is a metaphor created by the humans on Midkemia to symbolise the God's evil aspects and actions. This is what I believe because nothing I've read about Nalar suggests that he is mad in any criteria. He is cunning, evil and, well, bad to put it bluntly and I think mad sums this up nicely from our 'good' perspective.

And a big welcome from me Lorekeeper
 
I am extremely intriuged by the idea of Pug and Tomas venturing into the realm of the dread, it would make very good reading. I would really like to see the Valheru return in the Chaoswar saga.
 

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