Creating a (very) cliche world?

[Mammon]

Hello everyone. I got some idea of a world and wanted to work it out. First I will give the idea of the world, named Kouluu.

Kouluu is a strange world filled with funny, scary, strange and crazy creatures. Also, the laws of physics don’t always have to be the same as in our own world.
Because of the many creatures, there exists an important food chain must be obliged. At the top of the food chain, the Cyrthan stand. The humans are also part of the food chain, their place is somewhere in the middle.
The strongest of the Cyrthan is seen as the great leader of Kouluu and raises taxes, takes slaves and creatures to feast upon. The right of leadership can be challenged, though only other Cyrthan will do this.

Foodchain:

----------------Cyrthan
-------Orc-------Troll------Ogre
Goblin-----Dwarf------Human------Elf
Gnome------Kobold-----Hobbit-----Fairy
Greenling--Earthling--Beardling--Fairling

Now I was wondering if it is a problem to use the cliche races as Orc, Troll, Ogre, Goblin, Dwarf, etc. When I read a fantasy book and it contains Orcs, elfs and dwarfs I think: another cliche world. But with this world I wouldn't know if I would see it as a cliche world. Maybe because I created it myself. So I was wondering what your thoughts about it would be.

 

[Erin99]

If you think you can add another spin on an existing format, I'd say go for it. The only way you'll find out is by writing it and seeing what your (and other people's) thoughts are as you go along.

Just don't re-write an existing tale!

 

[Pyan]

Most of the races you mention are in public domain, so to speak.

The ones that I would be careful about using are Orc and Hobbit, both of which were invented by Tolkien, and may lay you open to people crying "Plagiarist!", or worse, "Gods, not another Tolkien rip-off..."

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Mmm... Not too happy about this either. Let's face it the 'races' you've used do have established implications. Ok trolls eat goats and orcs have been known to feast on anything that moves but it seems to me your tale will be relying on the readers in built expectations and if they act outside those boundaries it will jar with the readers. You know as in:-

Muskroy the troll was collecting roses from his garden when the human...

Also it rules out the option for building the profiles of your fauna for yourself. The 'qualities' of one of your monsters could be exactly the same as say a troll however, you'll miss out on all the descriptive pros that gets the reader into building the picture for him/herself. As in :-

The faint traces of spittle mingled with the remnants of the Spags (troll) last meal...

Also Earthling Human too confusing mixing genre.

Course opinions are meant to be disagreed with so...

 

[Malloriel]

One thing I would definitely be careful of is the fact that in many cases ogres are the generic form of Orcs, and halflings substituted for Hobbits, both of which I'd personally avoid simply because they ARE Tolkien's creations and quite possibly under copyright, and the Tolkien estate is not afraid to let you know when you've overstepped your bounds.

As for the "Spags", mentioned by TheEndIsNigh, not that I disagree with that certainly being a better option than Orcs, just in my opinion, but you don't want it to become a situation where you're taking a pre-established thing and giving it a new name to say "Bam! Now it's different!" If all you really want to have is an ogre type thing, then make it an ogre type thing. If what you want comes similar to an ogre type thing, but has a completely different societal structure with surprisingly complex ins and outs, a system of written language, organised festivals, and a drooling problem, then give them a name that separates them from the crowd.

Here:

• "Call a Rabbit a Smeerp"
  A cheap technique for false exoticism, in which common elements of the real world are re-named for a fantastic milieu without any real alteration in their basic nature or behavior. "Smeerps" are especially common in fantasy worlds, where people often ride exotic steeds that look and act just like horses. (Attributed to James Blish.)

From the Turkey City Lexicon.

I've personally found this to be a very important reminder in my own world building and think it's something everyone could use at some time or another.

That's just me and my opinion, though.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Malloriel: Yes I agree call a troll a troll.

The thing that calling them spag gives you is the option of stepping away from the stereotypical troll and allows for other 'qualities' such as the flower arranging, care for old ladies and spinal fluid tea parties.

 

[Erin99]

...that in many cases ogres are the generic form of Orcs, and halflings substituted for Hobbits, both of which I'd personally avoid simply because they ARE Tolkien's creations and quite possibly under copyright.

Didn't an author publish a book once where the lead characters were orcs, and the book told their story, making them look less like "the bad guys"? I remember hearing about such a book a long time ago. It had good reviews.

So, possibly you can use these creatures, as long as you give them a new spin...

"Call a Rabbit a Smeerp"

Good advice here. I remember reading that article over a year ago. Great stuff!

 

[chrispenycate]

Didn't an author publish a book once where the lead characters were orcs, and the book told their story, making them look less like "the bad guys"? I remember hearing about such a book a long time ago. It had good reviews.

So, possibly you can use these creatures, as long as you give them a new spin...

Mary Gentle "Grunts" perchance? I haven't yet found a copy, and when I wrote http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/10211-an-orcward-interval.html#post188744 Ihadn't even heard of it

 

[Pyan]

I don't know what £1.25 is in Swiss Francs, Chris...

MARY GENTLE GRUNTS FANTASY COMEDY PB on eBay,

 

[chrispenycate]

I don't know what £1.25 is in Swiss Francs, Chris...

MARY GENTLE GRUNTS FANTASY COMEDY PB on eBay,

£1. 25 for the book. £2.00 postage within Great Britain; probably three times that to Switzerland. Why I'm not using Amazon much; postage costs more than the books.

And the calculation is now easy; the Swiss Franc and the Dollar US are neck and neck…

 

[Erin99]

LOL! That might have been the novel. Grunts sounds familiar. And, Chrispy, I love your version!

See - if only you'd gotten there first...

 

[Pyan]

Why I'm not using Amazon much; postage costs more than the books.

What you really need are a couple of well-trained Pointless Albatrosses

ogres are the generic form of Orcs

Goblins = Orcs, surely?

 

[Culhwch]

I believe an author by the name of Stan Nichols wrote a series featuring orcs as protagonists, too.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Actually, orc is an Anglo Saxon word meaning monster or demon. Tolkien, of course, did equate them with goblins (only bigger and meaner than the average goblin).

But words such as goblin, troll, and elf have each had many different meanings over the centuries. Some of them are fairly flexible terms. It's just that in modern fantasy -- particularly fantasy based on D&D type role-playing games -- these words have a tendency to take on stock meanings, which in many cases rob them of most (or all) of their mythic power.

If you want to do something that hasn't been done to death, but which still has a certain psychological resonance, you can always research some of the older, traditional uses of these terms.

(Oh, and "hobbits" are mentioned in the Denham Tracts -- mid-nineteenth century, I don't remember the year -- in a long list of fairies, sprites, ghosts, hobgoblins, etc. There is no description, however, and Hobbits as we know them are definitely an invention of Tolkien's.)

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

Most of the races you mention are in public domain, so to speak.

The ones that I would be careful about using are Orc and Hobbit, both of which were invented by Tolkien, and may lay you open to people crying "Plagiarist!", or worse, "Gods, not another Tolkien rip-off..."

This fellow has the right of it but you could try using "Halfing" instead of "Hobbit" and giving them shoes instead of leathery, hairy feet. It sounds like quite a bizarre idea to have one race governing over all the others and enforcing taxes and such, especially when they are creatures that eat their subjects.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

This fellow has the right of it but you could try using "Halfing" instead of "Hobbit" and giving them shoes instead of leathery, hairy feet. It sounds like quite a bizarre idea to have one race governing over all the others and enforcing taxes and such, especially when they are creatures that eat their subjects.

Oh I don't know. Perhaps the eating didn't happen (probably cos they never thought of it or something to do with taste).
Surely the idea isn't that far away from norman times. Just about everything else went on.

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

Oh I don't know. Perhaps the eating didn't happen (probably cos they never thought of it or something to do with taste).
Surely the idea isn't that far away from norman times. Just about everything else went on.

In norman times everyone was human I just think it is a bit strange to have one supreme race the eats and enslaves the others. It's too obvious a setting to have an uprising or rebellion in my opinion.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

I'm pretty sure the normans didn't think the saxons were human. 'Humanity' for the masses is still not universal. Not sure just because you share the same gene pool it makes you mentally the same species.

Also whats the difference between us humans and the other animals that share the planet. Not so good for the cows, sheep and pigs.

Don't forget pretty soon we will have genetically modified cows because someone will be unable to resist implanting a modified cow egg to maturity. Then what? Beef that reportedly tastes like pork. In fact that could be the basis for your origin of the species. Often thought of the idea myself. Yes I know the Island of Dr. Whatever he was called explored this too.

 

[Mammon]

First of all… thanks for all the replies.

The ones that I would be careful about using are Orc and Hobbit, both of which were invented by Tolkien, and may lay you open to people crying "Plagiarist!", or worse, "Gods, not another Tolkien rip-off..."

Really? I didn’t know it was Tolkien who invented the Orc, since it is so often used in games and fantasy worlds. I knew that he created the Hobbit though.

Mmm... Not too happy about this either. Let's face it the 'races' you've used do have established implications. (…)

Ok I can see your point. That could become difficult when writing a story in this world. I also understand that I should not just “call a Rabbit a Smeerp” as Malloriel told.

Also Earthling Human too confusing mixing genre.

Oops… that was a translation error. I did not write this idea in English. Should have used another name for it.

I just think it is a bit strange to have one supreme race the eats and enslaves the others. It's too obvious a setting to have an uprising or rebellion in my opinion.

Well…I never heard the cows complaining to us. But seriously, I have to agree that it is an obvious setting for an rebellion. But there can be many reasons that those won’t happen and if they do, the rebels are … eaten. It is possible that the other races are scared or that the Cyrthan are with many and very strong. The lower races might possibly not rebel together because the human, elf etc. feel themselves to good for the hobbits, fairy’s etc.

But I’ll keep your opinion in mind. Maybe I will create different countries so that the Cyrthan do not rule the whole of Kouluu. What I have now is just a sketch.

I think I will first try to work out the cultures and behaviors of the races so that I get a better idea of what I want with them. Then I can think of other names for the races if needed.

 

[Peter Graham]

Hi Mammon

Really? I didn’t know it was Tolkien who invented the Orc, since it is so often used in games and fantasy worlds. I knew that he created the Hobbit though.

He didn't invent the actual words "orc" or "hobbit", but he certainly created what we now accept as orcs and hobbits in literature, games and so on. I think that the word "orc" appears in Beowulf. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo Saxon and (although not many people seem to know this) was in part setting out to write a mythology of the English. Middle Earth eventually becomes our world - the Shire is based heavily on the rural British midlands. It is therefore perhaps unsurprising that he used the early English texts like Beowulf as a useful resource for names and so on.

He also did much to cement our current notions of dwarves and elves. The idea of dwarves as bearded, stumpy miners who like beer and gold was largely his idea, as was the notion of elves as a high born race of harp-playing crackshots who lived in forests and had pointy ears. The original dwarves of Early English and Norse mythology were huge giants of the netherworld, and elves spent much of the last few hundred years as just another bunch of tricksy fairies.

I think I will first try to work out the cultures and behaviors of the races so that I get a better idea of what I want with them. Then I can think of other names for the races if needed.

Good idea. Any book that uses these motifs too much is always going to be compared to Tolkien, especially if you throw in Dark Lords and quests for good measure. Unfortunately, unless you can write as well as Tolkien, the comparison will always be unfavourable.

Well…I never heard the cows complaining to us.

You've obviously never been to an abbatoir...

But I’ll keep your opinion in mind. Maybe I will create different countries so that the Cyrthan do not rule the whole of Kouluu. What I have now is just a sketch.

Bear in mind that Dark Age and medieval kingships had environmental restrictions which don't apply today. Hostile terrain, poor communications and unwilling subjects all serve to limit the actual (as opposed to claimed) authority of feared or unpopular rulers. So your subject-eating bad guys might only exercise nominal control over large parts of their kingdom, perhaps relying on tribute or oaths of fealty from local chieftains and petty kings where they cannot rule direct.

Regards,

Peter